Accountability of Sheffield MPs who voted against brexit

[biotechpete]

I cant see how it can be anything else as the questions were:

 

Remain a member of the European Union

 

Leave the European Union

 

By any logic Leave means just that, which also means a total break from the EU.

 

You know as well as everyone else who has been over this time and again on here. That many 'options' were proposed for the final relationship and remaining a member of the single market was one such option, along side the Norway/Switzerland models.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce

Indeed arguably, since the majority of the UK is in favour of staying in the single market, it was these along with the 'have your cake and eat it' promises/lies which may have persuaded a proportion of people to vote leave.

http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2016/november/voters-want-uk-to-stay-in-the-eu-single-market-but-be-able-to-control-immigration/

[unbeliever]

You know as well as everyone else who has been over this time and again on here. That many 'options' were proposed for the final relationship and remaining a member of the single market was one such option, along side the Norway/Switzerland models.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce

Indeed arguably, since the majority of the UK is in favour of staying in the single market, it was these along with the 'have your cake and eat it' promises/lies which may have persuaded a proportion of people to vote leave.

http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2016/november/voters-want-uk-to-stay-in-the-eu-single-market-but-be-able-to-control-immigration/

 

 

You really must have been watching different interviews and debates from me.

Point out where it said "Kind of half leave the EU" on your ballot paper.

[biotechpete]

You really must have been watching different interviews and debates from me.

Point out where it said "Kind of half leave the EU" on your ballot paper.

 

Did you watch the video in the link? I watched stuff like that day in day out on Question Time, This Week, Daily Politics, Channel 4 news etc.

 

So if the option was always hard Brexit or no Brexit what were the lies about single market and Norway models all about?

 

Edit to add: Whenever leading leave campaigners have been challenged by interviewers about freedom of movement, the single market, workers protection, human rights, international cooperation (eg Europol, Space/Science programmes, LHC, REACH etc etc etc) they have consistently shifted their rhetoric. Be it from we "won't pay a penny to the EU" to "we can pay to access the single market" or "we will control immigration" to "nobody said control meant reduce" or "we will continue to be world leaders in science" to "there won't be any extra funding for science".

Edited February 15, 2017 by biotechpete

[apelike]

You know as well as everyone else who has been over this time and again on here. That many 'options' were proposed for the final relationship and remaining a member of the single market was one such option, along side the Norway/Switzerland models.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce

 

No options were ever proposed or given in the referendum vote which is the important bit, Parliament could have done so but missed its chance. Was that also the same video that was just a bunch of clips taken out of context and shown to be a pack of lies?

 

 

Indeed arguably, since the majority of the UK is in favour of staying in the single market, it was these along with the 'have your cake and eat it' promises/lies which may have persuaded a proportion of people to vote leave.

http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2016/november/voters-want-uk-to-stay-in-the-eu-single-market-but-be-able-to-control-immigration/

 

I think you mistake a poll of a few thousand chosen people after the referendum as representative of the majority of voters. It seems that a lot of polls have been wrong over the past 6 months as well.

[Jacktari]

I also never saw "Kind of half-leave the EU" on the ballot.

 

So, it is leave completely with no negotiation then?

[unbeliever]

So, it is leave completely with no negotiation then?

 

No. It isn't. There's nothing wrong with making an arrangement on tariffs and market access. There's something very wrong with submitting our entire nation to a foreign regulatory or legal regime.

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2017 at 18:37 ----------

 

Did you watch the video in the link? I watched stuff like that day in day out on Question Time, This Week, Daily Politics, Channel 4 news etc.

 

So if the option was always hard Brexit or no Brexit what were the lies about single market and Norway models all about?

 

Edit to add: Whenever leading leave campaigners have been challenged by interviewers about freedom of movement, the single market, workers protection, human rights, international cooperation (eg Europol, Space/Science programmes, LHC, REACH etc etc etc) they have consistently shifted their rhetoric. Be it from we "won't pay a penny to the EU" to "we can pay to access the single market" or "we will control immigration" to "nobody said control meant reduce".

 

Boris Johnson said outright that we would leave the single market on national television. So did Gove and Cameron and Stuart and many others.

A few minor figures equivocating on the matter cannot balance this.

Edited February 15, 2017 by unbeliever

[Jacktari]

No. It isn't. There's nothing wrong with making an arrangement on tariffs and market access. There's something very wrong with submitting our entire nation to a foreign regulatory or legal regime.

 

It is only foreign if you make it so.

 

I consider the USA to be a foreign country, more than I consider Germany, or Spain to be.

France will always be an enigma.

[apelike]

Why has there not been the moral outrage against the Tories for foisting this referendum on us, lying during its undertaking and not voting in line with their constituents' wishes?

 

To be honest I think any moral outrage should be put on the whole of Parliaments MP's for not debating the act properly and just passing it with just a few amendments. The blame is on all of them and not just a single party. I'm sure they know that and why they now have to uphold the wishes of the majority regardless. Parliament as a whole have messed up big time and damaged their long time credibility.

[biotechpete]

No. It isn't. There's nothing wrong with making an arrangement on tariffs and market access. There's something very wrong with submitting our entire nation to a foreign regulatory or legal regime.

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2017 at 18:37 ----------

 

 

Boris Johnson said outright that we would leave the single market on national television. So did Gove and Cameron and Stuart and many others.

A few minor figures equivocating on the matter cannot balance this.

 

They also emblazoned a bus with "extra £350 million a week for the NHS". How's that one working out?

 

And Boris has been equivocating as much as any others.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html

But I can see we're just going to get back into the distinction between access to the single market and membership of again, which is pointless.

Suffice to say it's yet more mistruth that we can somehow have "access to" the single market without common standards and rules so equivalent to membership that there is barely a distinction.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brussels-rejects-boris-johnson-pipe-dream-over-single-market-access

[unbeliever]

They also emblazoned a bus with "extra £350 million a week for the NHS". How's that one working out?

 

And Boris has been equivocating as much as any others.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html

But I can see we're just going to get back into the distinction between access to the single market and membership of again, which is pointless.

Suffice to say it's yet more mistruth that we can somehow have "access to" the single market without common standards and rules so equivalent to membership that there is barely a distinction.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brussels-rejects-boris-johnson-pipe-dream-over-single-market-access

 

It's so far from pointless I don't even know where to start.

Single market access is available to the whole world without special arrangements.

Single market membership is de-facto EU membership.

Negotiations will focus on enhanced access and tariff reductions.

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2017 at 19:04 ----------

 

It is only foreign if you make it so.

 

I consider the USA to be a foreign country, more than I consider Germany, or Spain to be.

France will always be an enigma.

 

I would be at least as strongly against the UK bring subject to US law.