Cold war all over again?

[phil752]

Two reasons. Firstly, the concept that Putin has a humanitarian bone in his body is laughable.

 

Secondly, the Russians will and do sell their military tech to pretty much anyone that will buy it.

 

you saying we and the US dont?

[flamingjimmy]

you saying we and the Us dont?

 

No, clearly.

[phil752]

No, clearly.

 

really what are ISIS fighting with what is happening in Yemen read the papers or even the net

[lottiecass]

Looks like Trump wants to pal Putin up then start sorting the threat of China.

[phil752]

Looks like Trump wants to pal Putin up then start sorting the threat of China.

 

who knows but Obama is doing is best to screw a smooth start over

[999tigger]

Are you having a laugh?

 

If a foreign power engages in illegal activity to obtain confidential information you cnat see anything wrong with that?[/color]

Sure. But we do it too; it's called spying.

 

 

How did they use the information to interfere with the election?

 

I think two things need to be made clear.

1) No evidence has been presented to prove that anybody hacked Clinton's emails.

2) The contents of the emails were never disputed as being forgeries.

 

So how was the election influenced, by revealing the truth?

 

Did the Russians influence the election by driving round Washington DC in Ladas shouting "Vote for Trump"?

How did they "interfere" with the election?

 

Obama is frothing at the mouth but there is no evidence being presented about anything, it's all unsubstantiated allegations.

 

eta - The history of American foreign policy (and ours too) contains examples where they have absolutely interfered with elections. Such as in Chile in 1973, when Allende was overthrown and murdered. Like we did back in the day when we had Mossadeq overthrown in Iraq.

 

You missed the first part of my post , which was if. It hasnt been proven yet or at least the evidence hhasnt been pliblicly revealed, so for the sake of this conversation you have to go with the scenario that information was stolen by the Russians and fed back by them in an attemp to inflience the outcome.

 

That means point 1 of your post doesnt count as its a theoretical but im fine with the idea that its a non starter unless you have proof. Presumably Obama has seen that proof and is satisfied.

 

The second point means you have missed the whole point. Its not whether it was true or not its the fact that a foreign power committed an illegal act and specifically attempted to influence the outcome of the election by releasing information favouring one side or the other.

 

You dont know whether they have no evidence or not unless you have been briefed by the CIA. If its true then they do have a right to respond.

[Anna B]

Flamingjimmy,

 

I wonder how many contributors to this thread remember the Cold War (for comparison purposes) ? I remember the Cuban missile crisis. We ordinary folk are left with the old conundrum. How on earth do we know for sure who is telling the truth ? I suppose ,a free press and an uncensored Internet are significant factors in helping us make our minds up.

When I was young the Cold War was conducted through newspapers and television. That's how we got our information.

 

I remember the cold war too, and the Cuban missile crisis. I also remember the Aldermaston marches and 'Ban the Bomb.' People seemed much more politically aware then, but it never occurred to me in those days that our lot weren't telling us the truth, and to be honest, I still think politicians et al were more honest and had more integrity then than they do now, but maybe I'm just being naive. We were certainly brain washed into believing that America were always the good guys - 'the policemen of the world,' and the beastly Russians were always bad. Maybe that's why I'm so outraged these days by the bare faced lies we are being fed. Can you imagine what would/will happen if China sets itself up as 'the policemen of the world'....

 

You are so right to say that a free press and internet is key, but both are under serious threat. To such an extent that the Daily Mail, of all papers. is running a campaign to stop press censorship. There's a new law sliding through under the radar apparently which puts the free press in jeopardy. Ever since the expenses scandal the government has been itching to muzzle them.

 

Trust is the issue. You simply don't know who to trust or who is pulling the strings these days, and when trust is gone we're in serious trouble.

 

And the stakes are so high.

 

Can I just add that half the people of America hate Hilary Clinton with such intensity that they were prepared to vote for someone like Donald Trump.

 

Ask yourself, why is that?

 

It certainly isn't just because of the email hacking, whoever did it....

Edited December 31, 2016 by Anna B

[blake]

I remember the cold war too, and the Cuban missile crisis. I also remember the Aldermaston marches and 'Ban the Bomb.' People seemed much more politically aware then, but it never occurred to me in those days that our lot weren't telling us the truth, and to be honest, I still think politicians et al were more honest and had more integrity then than they do now, but maybe I'm just being naive. We were certainly brain washed into believing that America were always the good guys -'the policemen of the world,' and the beastly Russians were always bad. Maybe that's why I'm so outraged these days by the bare faced lies we are being fed. Can you imagine what would/will happen if China sets itself up as 'the policemen of the world'....

 

You are so right to say that a free press and internet is key, but both are under serious threat. To such an extent that the Daily Mail, of all papers. is running a campaign to stop press censorship. There's a new law sliding through under the radar apparently which puts the free press in jeopardy. Ever since the expenses scandal the government has been itching to muzzle them.

 

Trust is the issue. You simply don't know who to trust or who is pulling the strings these days, and when trust is gone we're in serious trouble.

 

And the stakes are so high.

 

Can I just add that half the people of America hate Hilary Clinton with such intensity that they were prepared to vote for someone like Donald Trump.

 

Ask yourself, why is that?

 

It certainly isn't just because of the email hacking, whoever did it....

 

 

you're mis-remembering. That 'policeman of the world' cliche with reference to the United States, didn't enter the British left's lexicon until much later and didn't become the cliche it is now until the mid 70s to early 80s. It didn't start to creep into the narrative until the Vietnam war era.

 

never forget the Cold War, and it was a war, went on for a hell of a long time. It started with the Berlin Airlift in 1948, and didn't end until forty years later because the Commies packed it in because they'd lost and they couldn't carry on any more.

 

a whole generation has grown up now who looks back at the Cold War and finds it difficult to understand it.

 

once I was on a ferry in the Philippines and sitting down with a bunch of youngsters all of them in their early 20s from various countries, including the United States, and we'd got talking about IR, and one of them mentioned the Cold War, someone else said they struggled to understand what it was all about. Quite understandable really. If you're 20 years of age and born well after it finished, you'd find it a bit of a mystery.

 

I was only born in 1968 so I could only personally remember the tail end of it, but still had more insight into it than any of them did, so I found myself trying to sum it up, really quickly in only a few words.

 

I said it it started getting into gear in the 1950s and then in the 60s, it got really bad, with the Cuban Missile Crisis being the lowest point when it looked like everything really might come on top.

 

then in the 1970s, it improved and it all seemed to stabilise for a while.

 

but then in the 1980s, it started getting really bad again. Nearly as bad as it had been in the 1960s.

 

but then, quite suddenly, and rather unexpectedly, at the very end of the 1980s, it was all over and the West won.

[Anna B]

I don't think anybody really understood it to be honest, except maybe a few politicians and perhaps a few spies. It all seemed to be about suspicion, mistrust and ideologies, but I can't say it worried me much, (except the missile crisis.) We weren't very well informed by the media, I realise now it was all very one sided, we never heard it from any other point of view, and there was no way of finding out.

 

My, how the internet has changed things....

[Harrystottle]

its the fact that a foreign power committed an illegal act and specifically attempted to influence the outcome of the election by

 

OK let's take it as read that they did, even though no proof has been presented.

 

I just don't understand Obama's clutching at his pearl necklace. If the Russians hacked Clinton's emails it's called spying; and all the major powers do it.

 

Obama seems to have conveniently forgotten this story for instance, when the US was accused of hacking Merkel's phone.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/angela-merkels-phone-hacked-american-2485433

 

As for interfering in the electoral process Assad was elected in Syria; that doesn't seem to bother the US when they conspire to overthrow him, just as they conspired to overthrow the elected President of Chile and god knows how many others.