Failing NHS caused by the Tories?

[sgtkate]

We don't have to invent anything. Most good universal healthcare systems work this way. We can just copy one.

It's actually easier than trying to run a 95% nationalised system in a world where almost nobody else does.

 

The problem is that the Tories have some form with poor privatisation of other services, take the trains for a start. Promises of lower costs and better service are found to be completely false mainly due to poorly worded contracts. Labour are as bad in poorly worded contracts it must be said.

 

So people are naturally sceptical when someone mentions privatisations as I'm struggling to think of a single example of a national privatised service being better once privatised than state owned. Trains are a defo no, utilities I'd say a no, telecoms? Debateable. I just don't believe that the NHS is considerably than an equivalent sized private company and therefore for any private company to make profit (which is their sole reason d'etre) they'd need to increase costs or cut services. I work for a blooming massive company and the amount of efficiency savings we could make are horrendous. We literally pee money down the drain everyday and the NHS is no different.

 

Although this article says very differently:

https://hbr.org/1992/01/british-privatization-taking-capitalism-to-the-people

 

It's bias it pretty clear but the numbers quoted I shall assume are correct as it's the HBR and they are unlikely to print anything with provably incorrect data.

Edited January 16, 2017 by sgtkate

[El Cid]

We don't have to invent anything. Most good universal healthcare systems work this way. We can just copy one.

 

Dont they normally cost more, significantly?

[sgtkate]

Dont they normally cost more, significantly?

 

Indeed.

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2016/01/how-does-nhs-spending-compare-health-spending-internationally

 

Both when compared to direct costs to the individual and when compared with government costs per capita. Laughably, the US government spends more on healthcare per capita than we do, and then the population pay through the nose on top...not a model to ever be followed.

[unbeliever]

Dont they normally cost more, significantly?

 

Yes. I think France spends maybe 30% more per capita.

People are willing to pay it though because they maintain some control.

With full nationalisation you pay what they say and you take what they offer. Under those circumstances you look to pay the bare minimum.

[sgtkate]

Yes. I think France spends maybe 30% more per capita.

People are willing to pay it though because they maintain some control.

With full nationalisation you pay what they say and you take what they offer. Under those circumstances you look to pay the bare minimum.

 

If we want to look at a 'better' model (easy to say when we aren't living with it and grass is greener thought process) then we should look to South Korea.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447690/

 

Laymans explanation:

 

All doctors and hospitals are private

All hospital and doctors must conform to the government pricing structure for NI patients

Government managed obligatory health insurance which is charged at around 3% of income (money also deducted from welfare payments)

There is a small fee for treatment directly payable by the patient, but rough figures are around £10 for a GP or A&E visit, the rest is covered by the insurance. Giving birth in a hospital would cost under £300 (one example found).

Those receiving a certain level of welfare are fully covered and pay nothing.

Upfront costs are largely based on how and where you seek care, with GP costs mostly covered and all health screening fully covered. Aim to encourage people to get help quickly for minor issues before they escalate and to encourage efficient use of resources.

 

It doesn't cover avoidable injury so things like a broken arm from skiing wouldn't be covered.

 

As a result it's one of the cheapest healthcare systems in the world for both the government and taxpayer and nearly everyone is covered for unavoidable health issues. So it's not perfect but perhaps its a model we should look a lot more closely at and see if we can make it work for what we need our NHS to do, given that it clearly cannot do everything.

[unbeliever]

If we want to look at a 'better' model (easy to say when we aren't living with it and grass is greener thought process) then we should look to South Korea.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447690/

 

Laymans explanation:

 

All doctors and hospitals are private

All hospital and doctors must conform to the government pricing structure for NI patients

Government managed obligatory health insurance which is charged at around 3% of income (money also deducted from welfare payments)

There is a small fee for treatment directly payable by the patient, but rough figures are around £10 for a GP or A&E visit, the rest is covered by the insurance. Giving birth in a hospital would cost under £300 (one example found).

Those receiving a certain level of welfare are fully covered and pay nothing.

Upfront costs are largely based on how and where you seek care, with GP costs mostly covered and all health screening fully covered. Aim to encourage people to get help quickly for minor issues before they escalate and to encourage efficient use of resources.

 

It doesn't cover avoidable injury so things like a broken arm from skiing wouldn't be covered.

 

As a result it's one of the cheapest healthcare systems in the world for both the government and taxpayer and nearly everyone is covered for unavoidable health issues. So it's not perfect but perhaps its a model we should look a lot more closely at and see if we can make it work for what we need our NHS to do, given that it clearly cannot do everything.

 

Gets my vote.

[tinfoilhat]

Yes. I think France spends maybe 30% more per capita.

 

And that ladies and gentlemen is the problem in a nutshell. There are more of us than ever before, living longer and living longer with long term illnesses. We need to pay more. Our governments, past and present won't ask for more money so fudge it. The tories aren't running into the ground anymore than labour would in the same situation.

 

Could the NHS be more efficient? Of course it could but it will still need more money. Who will pay for it?

[unbeliever]

And that ladies and gentlemen is the problem in a nutshell. There are more of us than ever before, living longer and living longer with long term illnesses. We need to pay more. Our governments, past and present won't ask for more money so fudge it. The tories aren't running into the ground anymore than labour would in the same situation.

 

Could the NHS be more efficient? Of course it could but it will still need more money. Who will pay for it?

 

 

We've been through this above. People are well aware that nationalised industries will soak up as much money as they can get their hands on. Getting significantly more funding in depends on adopting a different universal healthcare model.

[tinfoilhat]

If we want to look at a 'better' model (easy to say when we aren't living with it and grass is greener thought process) then we should look to South Korea.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447690/

 

Laymans explanation:

 

All doctors and hospitals are private

All hospital and doctors must conform to the government pricing structure for NI patients

Government managed obligatory health insurance which is charged at around 3% of income (money also deducted from welfare payments)

There is a small fee for treatment directly payable by the patient, but rough figures are around £10 for a GP or A&E visit, the rest is covered by the insurance. Giving birth in a hospital would cost under £300 (one example found).

Those receiving a certain level of welfare are fully covered and pay nothing.

Upfront costs are largely based on how and where you seek care, with GP costs mostly covered and all health screening fully covered. Aim to encourage people to get help quickly for minor issues before they escalate and to encourage efficient use of resources.

 

It doesn't cover avoidable injury so things like a broken arm from skiing wouldn't be covered.

 

As a result it's one of the cheapest healthcare systems in the world for both the government and taxpayer and nearly everyone is covered for unavoidable health issues. So it's not perfect but perhaps its a model we should look a lot more closely at and see if we can make it work for what we need our NHS to do, given that it clearly cannot do everything.

 

What about breaking my leg playing football when someone slides into me? Acciently, the pitch isn't great and it could have got rained off. Do I pay? The guy who broke my leg? The ref for not calling the match off?

 

Diabetes is, in many cases, avoidable with a healthy lifestyle. Need a triple bypass? Smoker? Totally avoidable - that's £20k please. Childbirth?!?!?!?

 

You get my point by now surely ;);)

 

---------- Post added 16-01-2017 at 12:59 ----------

 

We've been through this above. People are well aware that nationalised industries will soak up as much money as they can get their hands on. Getting significantly more funding in depends on adopting a different universal healthcare model.

 

Or a different outlook. The tories cannot reform the public sector because the public sector won't let it get off the ground.

[unbeliever]

What about breaking my leg playing football when someone slides into me? Acciently, the pitch isn't great and it could have got rained off. Do I pay? The guy who broke my leg? The ref for not calling the match off?

 

Diabetes is, in many cases, avoidable with a healthy lifestyle. Need a triple bypass? Smoker? Totally avoidable - that's £20k please. Childbirth?!?!?!?

 

You get my point by now surely ;);)

 

The counter to your question of who should pay is 'Should I and everybody else pay because you and another person recklessly injured you in an activity you know is risky?'.

If your answer is "yes", then you can vote for a system, like for example the French of Swiss systems, where these kinds of things are covered, knowing that it increases the cost substantially.