unbeliever Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I accept some people are satisfied with their ZHC - and if it's working for them and their employer, all well and good. My concern, amongst other things, is that people on ZHC have been found to be paid less than their counterparts doing exactly the same work. And worryingly, this discrepancy is more marked the further down the income scale you go. And if something as obvious as pay differentials are occurring, that begs the question what else is there to be uncovered? Given that there has been a huge rise is the use of ZHC recently, it's a question worth asking. Questions are fine. Vigilance is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Arctor Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Questions are fine. Vigilance is good. Both are useless without action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medusa Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 You'll have a job working out if anybody has said anything worthy of reading! It's not often that I hanker after Mort arriving with his/her distaste of 'bickering' but... Ooooh, she'll be delighted to be hankered after... ---------- Post added 07-03-2017 at 22:44 ---------- Right, big admin warning time. Can we just all take a step back and regain some common respect for each other in this thread please? As mort would say, stop bickering! That applies to about 5 people on the thread at the moment and I intend it to include all of them. You know who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacktari Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Reading a few posts on this thread, I have to say that the working class have brought this on themselves. By reading and believing all the Thatcherite nonsense churned out by the Murdoch and other press, they allowed themselves to become isolated. A person on their own is useless; the solidarity of the trade unions is vital in this world. If you are not united, this is what you end up with; a nation of people without hope or aim blundering into a situation devised to ruin them. And what is worse, in my view, doing it willingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TORONTONY Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Reading a few posts on this thread, I have to say that the working class have brought this on themselves. By reading and believing all the Thatcherite nonsense churned out by the Murdoch and other press, they allowed themselves to become isolated. A person on their own is useless; the solidarity of the trade unions is vital in this world. If you are not united, this is what you end up with; a nation of people without hope or aim blundering into a situation devised to ruin them. And what is worse, in my view, doing it willingly. Well that was always the Thatcher plan, and it has worked. That was why I left the country 35 years ago, I saw it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Both are useless without action. Ill-considered action is worst of all. ---------- Post added 08-03-2017 at 09:40 ---------- Reading a few posts on this thread, I have to say that the working class have brought this on themselves. By reading and believing all the Thatcherite nonsense churned out by the Murdoch and other press, they allowed themselves to become isolated. A person on their own is useless; the solidarity of the trade unions is vital in this world. If you are not united, this is what you end up with; a nation of people without hope or aim blundering into a situation devised to ruin them. And what is worse, in my view, doing it willingly. This is rather off-topic, but: I'm more than happy to defend your right to join a trade union, provided you defend my right not to and you don't presume to negotiate on my behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Oh great. more red tape. All that will happen is that the work wont get offered out and staff will have to do it on enforced overtime which is never good for anyone. Enforced overtime? Interesting concept. What will you do if they aren't willing to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Enforced overtime? Interesting concept. What will you do if they aren't willing to do it? https://www.gov.uk/overtime-your-rights/compulsory-overtime It is within the law for an employment contract to include a requirement to do overtime work, within reason. As I understand it, Obelix doesn't want to do this to his employees, as the existing arrangements are better for everybody, but if ZHCs are banned or severely inhibited then this is the next best option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 See this I like. Constructive. Looking for a solution which addresses Pete's concerns without screwing Obelix. What do you think of an information campaign to increase awareness amongst employees of their existing rights, before we start messing with the primary legislation? Ok, let's start with this. Any employer who cannot prove: - that's they've given a formal written contract to their employee - and that they've given a guidebook (to be written by the government and updated as appropriate) to the employee who signs to say they understand the contents of it - that they pay the legal minimum wage with deductions or miscalculating of time (i.e. Sports Direct) - that any dismissal is not as a result of a protected characteristic, trade union membership or health and safety concerns. All companies will have a disciplinary process detailed in that contract I talked about in point 2 so should be easy to show why someone was fired gets jail time. I'm not going to advocate financial penalties as a company will mysteriously go bankrupt only to open with a fractionally different name and carry on as before. Let's make this a big deal, you mistreat your staff you go to jail...and the onus is on your prove it. Obelix, sadly there appears to be a need for more red tape as some employers are taking their staff for a ride, something you agree happens. If ZHCs are at fault then clearly the enforcement of the law isn't correct, so to enforce it better needs to put all the onus on the employer to prove they aren't a bad apple. I'm sure all decent employers such as yourself are almost certainly doing all the above anyway as part of standard HR processes. ---------- Post added 08-03-2017 at 10:00 ---------- https://www.gov.uk/overtime-your-rights/compulsory-overtime It is within the law for an employment contract to include a requirement to do overtime work, within reason. As I understand it, Obelix doesn't want to do this to his employees, as the existing arrangements are better for everybody, but if ZHCs are banned or severely inhibited then this is the next best option. Compulsory overtime, you mean like contracted hours? Fancy that... Let's be clear, Obelix doesn't want to do this to his employees as well as the fact that it might cause him more grief. He's not running a business out of altruism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Ok, let's start with this. Any employer who cannot prove: - that's they've given a formal written contract to their employee - and that they've given a guidebook (to be written by the government and updated as appropriate) to the employee who signs to say they understand the contents of it - that they pay the legal minimum wage with deductions or miscalculating of time (i.e. Sports Direct) - that any dismissal is not as a result of a protected characteristic, trade union membership or health and safety concerns. All companies will have a disciplinary process detailed in that contract I talked about in point 2 so should be easy to show why someone was fired gets jail time. I'm not going to advocate financial penalties as a company will mysteriously go bankrupt only to open with a fractionally different name and carry on as before. Let's make this a big deal, you mistreat your staff you go to jail...and the onus is on your prove it. Obelix, sadly there appears to be a need for more red tape as some employers are taking their staff for a ride, something you agree happens. If ZHCs are at fault then clearly the enforcement of the law isn't correct, so to enforce it better needs to put all the onus on the employer to prove they aren't a bad apple. I'm sure all decent employers such as yourself are almost certainly doing all the above anyway as part of standard HR processes. I have an enormous problem, on general principle, with people being sent to prison because they cannot prove a negative. As should anybody who believes in natural justice. I don't mind people terribly being fined and such for failing to keep mandated records on employee discipline, but if you want to send them to prison, positive proof of wilful wrongdoing should be shown. I like the idea of handing out government guidance and signing to say you understand. I don't have a problem with throwing the book at employers who take the proverbial. ---------- Post added 08-03-2017 at 10:06 ---------- Compulsory overtime, you mean like contracted hours? Fancy that... Let's be clear, Obelix doesn't want to do this to his employees as well as the fact that it might cause him more grief. He's not running a business out of altruism... I think Obelix has stopped following this thread so I think it best if we stop using him as an example. I have no authority to speak on his behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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