Martial Artists: Why do you train?

[Crayfish]

Okay - the main point is that boxers train full contact sparring. In my opinion, people get good at what they practice - someone who practices fighting will become a better fighter, while someone who kicks air and pads, or plays semi-contact tiggy with people is only going to be good at that. Boxers will be used to taking hits and carrying on, are more likely to be physically fit, strong and tough, and will have more of an instinctive feel for how a real fight goes and how to manipulate the situation.

 

The second reason is that I don't rate the karate stance or many of the techniques as they're taught in many clubs - they don't guard their face at all or know how to drop their chin, which is christmas and birthday rolled into one for a boxer, the long stance is perhaps less of a susceptibility against boxers than styles involving leg kicks or grappling, but it's still not the best idea I've ever heard. The arms are held too far away from the body to catch quick combinations effectively (this is a physical principle that I could explain in person) and though powerful, much of the striking techniques are only really that powerful when at the exact range they're used to - hitting a moving, aggressive target is a different story - especially as boxers naturally prefer a shorter range than the one optimal for karate.

 

As Cyclone said though, an MMA fighter would be a still better bet than a boxer - this again can be evidenced in UFC videos and so on.

[themadrev]

Amen to all that.

[dan__]

I appreciate your opinion Crayfish, thanks. Couple of things though….

 

boxers shadow box, is this not punching air? & Boxers use pads, as do some karate classes..

 

‘‘Semi-contact tiggy’’

 

Sorry but I do not consider using gum shields, gloves, and head guards full contact, neither does it give you “an instinctive feel for how a real fight goes”. Clearly you have not trained in nor watched a traditional karate class, otherwise you would not make such a generalization.

 

Boxers maybe more physically fit, as in larger in muscular appearance, however this will never match sheer technique in any way, if anything the more muscular biceps etc would slow a fighter down.

 

“they don't guard their face at all” “The arms are held too far away from the body to catch quick combinations effectively”

 

incorrect, Karate free style stance (as used in sparring) does guard the face, closely if required, yet always very accurately. As for dropping your chin, there is no need, karate does not advocate getting hit on the side of the head, preferring to block or move, so no need to “drop your chin”

 

“the long stance is perhaps less of a susceptibility against boxers than styles involving leg kicks or grappling, but it's still not the best idea I've ever heard”

 

karate stances change depending upon the situation…

 

 

“hitting a moving, aggressive target is a different story - especially as boxers naturally prefer a shorter range than the one optimal for karate”

 

There is no optimum range for karate, just the range that is required from the situation, some much closer than boxers would like, some much further away than boxers would be used to.

[price]

Okay - the main point is that boxers train full contact sparring. In my opinion, people get good at what they practice - someone who practices fighting will become a better fighter, while someone who kicks air and pads, or plays semi-contact tiggy with people is only going to be good at that. Boxers will be used to taking hits and carrying on, are more likely to be physically fit, strong and tough, and will have more of an instinctive feel for how a real fight goes and how to manipulate the situation.

 

The second reason is that I don't rate the karate stance or many of the techniques as they're taught in many clubs - they don't guard their face at all or know how to drop their chin, which is christmas and birthday rolled into one for a boxer, the long stance is perhaps less of a susceptibility against boxers than styles involving leg kicks or grappling, but it's still not the best idea I've ever heard. The arms are held too far away from the body to catch quick combinations effectively (this is a physical principle that I could explain in person) and though powerful, much of the striking techniques are only really that powerful when at the exact range they're used to - hitting a moving, aggressive target is a different story - especially as boxers naturally prefer a shorter range than the one optimal for karate.

 

As Cyclone said though, an MMA fighter would be a still better bet than a boxer - this again can be evidenced in UFC videos and so on.

Study GOJU-RYU KARATE.DO

[dan__]

Study GOJU-RYU KARATE.DO

 

indeed, study any real karate do.

[GazB]

I'm with Crayfish on this one, bigtime.

 

Karate is a good martial art to learn, but is not realistic at all when coming to a real fight where you need effective guarding, punching and evasion.

 

Being stood in a line, moving one step forward with a punch that comes from the waist (yeah, great guard).. is pretty much asking to get your ass kicked.

 

By the way, Shadow boxing is warm up.. and barely any boxing gyms spar with headguards. Mouthguards, obviously.

[chefkicker]

I'm with Crayfish on this one, bigtime.

 

Karate is a good martial art to learn, but is not realistic at all when coming to a real fight where you need effective guarding, punching and evasion.

 

Being stood in a line, moving one step forward with a punch that comes from the waist (yeah, great guard).. is pretty much asking to get your ass kicked.

 

By the way, Shadow boxing is warm up.. and barely any boxing gyms spar with headguards. Mouthguards, obviously.

 

Karate as it is taught in a lot of clubs needs to evolve. Im with both GazB and Crayfish on this one.

As for the headguards issue, they dont protect your face or chin, just stop you getting cut and marked up. I once turned up for work at a primary school with a massive cut round my left eye and a big shiner under my right eye. The headmistress sent me home as it was considered the "wrong image" that the ethos of the school wanted to portray.

 

As for gumshields, who wants to lose teeth in training anyway? Get a grip man!

[llll_fb_llll]

Boxers maybe more physically fit, as in larger in muscular appearance, however this will never match sheer technique in any way, if anything the more muscular biceps etc would slow a fighter down.

 

incorrect, Karate free style stance (as used in sparring) does guard the face, closely if required, yet always very accurately. As for dropping your chin, there is no need, karate does not advocate getting hit on the side of the head, preferring to block or move, so no need to “drop your chin”

 

Look at how big Tyson's biceps were, was he slow/sluggish in his prime?

The point being that regardless of how big your muscles are, you can train

to get faster, E.g. Fast-twitch vs. Slow-twitch muscles

 

You say there is no need to drop your chin in Karate as it does not advocate getting hit on the side of the head. I don't think any system advocates this.

But most are humble/experienced enough to accept that you may not be able to block/move all attacks.

[Crayfish]

dan_

 

I'm not trying to cause personal offence here. I have however been to several traditional karate clubs, and trained with a competent karate-ka in an informal setting for around a year, and stand by everything that I said. The long stance in karate is the most commonly used and isn't very practical at all. That and other stances e.g. cat stance etc. seem more intended to look good than be useful and having so many stances just complicates the issue anyway. The best way to develop effective footwork and movement is, after learning a few basics, to spar.

 

There is most certainly an optimum range for karate, again I can't really demonstrate this through typing but feel free to pop down and train sometime and I'd be glad to show you what I mean (I'm not meaning this as some sort of challenge, I think that trading skills and ideas is a valuable thing, and it might be that you have things that could improve my game too).

 

As to the not dropping the chin thing... no one can fight and be sure they won't be hit. Better to be sure that hit won't KO you. The idea that weight and strength don't make a difference is characteristic of people who haven't trained full contact / full resistance, and is just delusional. I'm not saying that a skinny guy with excellent technique can't outclass a larger, stronger person with no idea how to fight at all, but while technique makes the most of strength, the ability to put more strength into techniques is obviously advantageous. And a sloppy technique from a steroid fuelled monster will still be more powerful than a perfect technique from a 10 (and a half ) stone weakling.

 

Shadow boxing is as chefkicker says a warm up in boxing, karate does not generally incorporate full contact fighting. The gumshield is a sensible precaution when training and doesn't detract from the realism of the training as it doesn't affect movement or the execution of technique. Same with the headguard - I don't actually wear one but must admit I'm considering getting one, just because I quite like my brain as it is. I consider hitting someone full contact who's wearing a gumshield more realistic than semi contact / points tiggy, which I'm guessing is all that you've trained - feel free to correct me on this. Admittedly boxing gloves aren't the most conducive to realism, I prefer MMA gloves but I'd still rather train boxing/kickboxing than trad. karate (or other traditional styles).

 

The other aspect that both karate and boxing don't touch on at all, or barely, is grappling and particularly groundwork.

 

Anyway, we could debate the merits of technique till the cows come home, but the only real test is to step into a ring with them. Karate doesn't perform well in this situation. Come down to AFK kickboxing in town some time and have a spar, I'm down most Fridays (not this one though unfortunately, got some family commitments).

 

I do feel like I have the experience necessary to comment on this as I've trained at least 7 martial arts for a significant period of time over the last 6 years or so (and got a taste of many, many more). No one art has all the answers, I take a little from everything I've trained - and to be honest karate is the art from which I've abandoned the most. The only thing I still use is the side kick, as pretty much all of the other techniques are impractical or have more effective variants in other arts e.g. muay thai. Don't want to make this sound like I'm any good, I'm under no illusions as to my ability but think that the breadth of different approaches I can draw on gives me an advantage over people with more one-dimensional styles.

[Cyclone]

no need to for me to add anything regarding why I think boxing is best, it's all been covered.

The most important point though (I think) is the full resistance, full contact sparring, which isn't stopped because someone got hit.

It's closer to reality than any karate sparring i've seen, and mma is closer again than boxing, hence what I said about mma fighters.