Martial Artists: Why do you train?

[Crayfish]

Price - I've studied in clubs broadly similar to that one and they are I'm afraid the exact things I'm having a go at. Unless I'm mistaken and your club indulges in full contact sparring, my turning up to a class wouldn't test anything as what we're debating is the relative fighting abilities of practitioners from different styles. This obviously wouldn't be tested by me coming and doing kata and similar violent deeds to the air of your club.

 

A far better test would be for you to send a student of approximately six years training and somewhere in the region of 67 kg weight and 20 years age down to AFK kickboxing or the 393 club on langsett road and I'll have a friendly MMA session with them during or after the class, if the respective coaches agreed. Which they might not, admittedly, don't know how insurance would view that one.

[ox ma]

The styles I have studied have helped me comp and self defence.

Taekwondo is good for kicking- hard kicks too! Good for hapkido locks too.

Kickboxing/Thai is good for conditioning and is great all round stand up martial art it improves hand skills well.

Shotokan was my first style this was hardcore traditional training is good for discipline and my forearms got strong doing blocking drills a good solid style.

I am just getting into grappling styes after 20 years of Ma, and am really enjoying it.

All styles have something good to offer!

Ps Dave my banana wants to challenge yours!!!

[price]

No one is likely to go and learn an alternative martial art just to settle an argument. I'm afraid you have to prove your point with words or accept that it won't be proven.

I'm not argueing ,nor do I want to,cyclone.

[Cyclone]

would you accept that you were discussing?

 

argument, discussion, it means the same thing, a point in contention.

[price]

Price - I've studied in clubs broadly similar to that one and they are I'm afraid the exact things I'm having a go at. Unless I'm mistaken and your club indulges in full contact sparring, my turning up to a class wouldn't test anything as what we're debating is the relative fighting abilities of practitioners from different styles. This obviously wouldn't be tested by me coming and doing kata and similar violent deeds to the air of your club.

 

A far better test would be for you to send a student of approximately six years training and somewhere in the region of 67 kg weight and 20 years age down to AFK kickboxing or the 393 club on langsett road and I'll have a friendly MMA session with them during or after the class, if the respective coaches agreed. Which they might not, admittedly, don't know how insurance would view that one.

I'm simply suggesting a way you could fill the gap in your Karate knowledge by delving deeper into Karate. There is no need for veiled challenges or the attempted belittling of something of which you don't have full knowledge. I was trying to help, however, your confidence in your opinions means my attempts are falling on stony ground. Maybe maturity will alter your outlook.As for fighting abilities and effectiveness Goju-Ryu techniques have been taught to The Kremlin Guard and Spetsnaz, by English Instructors. These organisations are not noted for their gentility, so there must be some effective fighting abilities in Goju-Ryu somewhere. AFK? if that's on Wellington St.,then I believe there's a Goju-Ryu club above it, maybe if you visited there and told the man in charge you were investigating fighting techniques or something, I'm sure you'd be made welcome and various techniques could be demonstrated for you (not on you, I hasten to add) Oh well no matter, subject closed. Back to the thread proper.....

[Cyclone]

Is there an MMA or UFC fighter who's primary background is Goju-ryu? That would give us a better perspective without all having to go and learn whatever style we individually say is good.

[ANVIL]

I'm simply suggesting a way you could fill the gap in your Karate knowledge by delving deeper into Karate. There is no need for veiled challenges or the attempted belittling of something of which you don't have full knowledge. I was trying to help, however, your confidence in your opinions means my attempts are falling on stony ground. Maybe maturity will alter your outlook.As for fighting abilities and effectiveness Goju-Ryu techniques have been taught to The Kremlin Guard and Spetsnaz, by English Instructors. These organisations are not noted for their gentility, so there must be some effective fighting abilities in Goju-Ryu

 

he wasn't make a 'veiled' challenge - it was transparent, friendly and respectful bearing in mind his point, and although crayfish may be young (?), his opinions are mature and well-formed, based on his own experience and that of the experience of karate-ka in mma events. They are also opinions that are widely held in mma and rbsd circles, and that neither you nor anyone else currently seems able to refute with any real conviction.

[Crayfish]

Price - I didn't intend to imply any veiled threats and meant all that I said in a friendly manner. Having a scientific background, that was the only scientific(ish) method I could think of to compare the two styles. Obviously with a sample of one it still wouldn't be conclusive but I don't think that being taught more of something that all the evidence I've seen shows to be not much use would convince me and it's not something that I want to waste my time doing. My opinions on karate are formed from a standpoint of a reasonable depth of knowledge about the training methods most commonly employed and the relative efficacy of the techniques. I don't see any need to fill in the gaps in my knowledge because I don't personally feel they're worth knowing.

 

As Cyclone mentioned, other proof of Goju-ryu's merit e.g. it's use in MMA competitions might serve to change my mind, but as far as I'm aware karate-ka usually either A: find random excuses not to ever enter anything where they might get hurt or their style discredited, or B: are considerably braver than their peers and go for it, often put up a spirited showing but ultimately lose due to not knowing useful techniques.

 

I must ask, how much knowledge do you have of other martial arts? You seem very sure that yours is valid but I wonder if this is because you've spent a lot of time being told how good it is without trying other things for yourself. I've spent quite a lot of time going round to different clubs in Sheffield and finding out which ones work for me and karate (tried several shotokan variants, shukokai, 'freestyle') really fell short of what I was looking to get out of a martial art. I'm belittling it not out of indiscriminate bigotry but because out of personal experience, it's just a bit naff.

 

I know a LOT of people who have trained extensively in karate then given other martial arts a serious go and realised how poorly it really tends to translate into any other combatative situation.

[chefkicker]

Price - I've studied in clubs broadly similar to that one and they are I'm afraid the exact things I'm having a go at. Unless I'm mistaken and your club indulges in full contact sparring, my turning up to a class wouldn't test anything as what we're debating is the relative fighting abilities of practitioners from different styles. This obviously wouldn't be tested by me coming and doing kata and similar violent deeds to the air of your club.

 

A far better test would be for you to send a student of approximately six years training and somewhere in the region of 67 kg weight and 20 years age down to AFK kickboxing or the 393 club on langsett road and I'll have a friendly MMA session with them during or after the class, if the respective coaches agreed. Which they might not, admittedly, don't know how insurance would view that one.

 

Again mr price I second what Crayfish says. I myself would like to have a look at what Okinawan Goju ryu has to offer. Im sure it has a lot to offer but Crayfish has my permission to spar with you under MMA rules in our boxing ring by all means.

 

Perhaps Goju is a stand up style? Then maybe I can match a few of the guys from Goju up on my next show?

This is not a challenge I dont play games like that, this is a genuine offer with FAIR matching up , i.e. you dont have to fight a kickboxer if you dont feel confident enough to. I can always match you up with a Kung Fu or Taekwondo stylist?

 

The offers stand and my door remains open

Respect due.

Farhad

[themadrev]

Having said 'Amen' to Crayfish earlier on this thread I just want to stick up for him and add a couple of things. Firstly, Crayfish is one of the nicest, respectful young men you could meet (I can say that as I'm over twice his age!). There are certainly no hidden agendas or veiled threats from him. The debate about Karate and reality is a wider one reflected in the Martial arts press by people like Denis Jones and Geoff Thompson (both highly ranked karateka). You can see it in the fashion for bunkai (which while interesting sometimes seems to be stretching imagination to its limits by seeing blocks as locks and takedowns etc), or in the rewriting of Funakosahi's dictum 'there is no first strike in karate' to 'there is no first intention in karate' Quite different don't you think? On the blocks thing: action is faster than reaction and I defy a karateka to block with a traditional block a good jab from a boxer. I have trained in both shotokan and wado ryu and growing up during the troubles in Northern Ireland I got battered using karate to defend myself and I resorted to my boxing, judo, headbutts, pulling hair down onto a knee (my own version of a Thai clinch-it was the era of long hair) and natural cunning! I left karate after being frustrated in a competition fighting a much taller and skilled opponent and I couldn't get near him so I grabbed him and I throw him a couple of times and was disqualified for using: 'kamikaze judo throws'!! I'm a bit down today as I spent five minutes in a ring after BJJ yesterday, I keep thinking about all the training I've done, money I've spent and how little of what I was taught actually works. I have the greatest respect for anyone training and teaching martial arts but please don't claim it works if it doesn't.