Another vote t'other side of the Border.

[L00b]

But does Scotland's majority want another INDY referendum so soon. When the first one was agreed Sturgeon stated it was to be a "once in a generation" referendum, not a once every 2 yeas until we get a leave vote. May should also not allow a new section 30 to go ahead so soon, and also not until we have left the EU. When the dust has settled from Brexit then let the Scots go ahead with one.

Sturgeon is the head of the Scottish government, was elected as such on a manifesto which included calling IndyRef 2 if the circumstance changed -in particular a UK exit from the EU- and so has a bona fide democratic mandate to call IndyRef 2.

 

...you're not another one of these Leavers with a "variable geometry" understanding of sovereignty and democracy, are you?

 

[unbeliever]

The challenge for the SNP is that the economic case is a mess and if they want to join the EU, they'll have to actually go for independence. Last time they were asking for home rule, which is not the same thing at all.

So they'll probably lose on economics (if anybody cares as I'm not sure I would) and they'll certainly lose on fear as they can't offer the kind of smooth, gentle, false-independence that was on the table last time.

The only thing left is to convince the Scottish people that they'll get better and more accountable government. Let's see how they do.

 

---------- Post added 13-03-2017 at 15:09 ----------

 

Sturgeon is the head of the Scottish government, was elected as such on a manifesto which included calling IndyRef 2 if the circumstance changed -in particular a UK exit from the EU- and so has a bona fide democratic mandate to call IndyRef 2.

 

...you're not another one of these Leavers with a "variable geometry" understanding of sovereignty and democracy, are you?

 

 

 

If this is your attitude, why did you "wow" me when I said that I was open to the case for breaking up the UK?

[melthebell]

In my view the SNP have no respect for democracy. You can't just keep holding referenda until you get the result you want. 3 years is hardly a "generation" for such a once in a generation event. If there's another vote then it will be tied at 1-1. A third would be required as a decider.

 

tbf to them tho, its quite a momentous and possibly life changing thing that happened. and if i remember right most of the people in scotland voted to remain? so you cant blame them for another referendum on independence.

[L00b]

If this is your attitude,

What 'attitude'?

why did you "wow" me when I said that I was open to the case for breaking up the UK?

Because the length in time and strength of your nationalist pro-Brexit arguments simply did not prepare me for the casualness with which you seemingly propose to bin your centennial Union.

 

I can only hope that most Leavers are as open-minded as you seemingly are, about the prospect of neighbouring Scotland and a reunified Ireland as independent sovereign countries again

 

From 5th global economy as the UK in June 2016, to 12th or lower as "Wangland" by 2020 or so...now I knew you were fond of small government and downsizing, but that's taking some extremes!

Edited March 13, 2017 by L00b

[TORONTONY]

Here's to hoping Theresa May will nix Sturgeon's call for IndyRef2.

 

Then the Tories would be finished north of the border for a generation or 3, and Scotland would definitely exit the Union at term

 

Here's to hoping Sturgeon gets her IndyRef2, and that the Scots won't bottle it again, to finally take their place among the nations of the world

 

This car crash gets better by the week

 

But will they still rely on the UK for defence, if they bail out? I would tell them to get yourselves an Army lf you want to be a lone nation, or more realistically an Air Force and Navy, as the only land border would be with England. I think it was that reasoning which helped Canada to convince Qubecers to vote to stay put several years ago .

[unbeliever]

What 'attitude'?

Because the length in time and strength of your nationalist pro-Brexit arguments simply did not prepare me for the casualness with which you seemingly propose to bin your centennial Union.

 

I can only hope that most Leavers are as open-minded as you seemingly are, about the prospect of neighbouring Scotland and a reunified Ireland as independent sovereign countries again

 

 

I'm not a nationalist. I'm just not a supra-nationalist. I place a lot of confidence in the institution of the nation state, but it doesn't matter to me too much how these nation states are drawn up on a map.

It seems rather obvious to me.

 

Okay so Great Britain is a union about 10 times older than the EU, but all the same principles apply. Also the UK's democratic credentials are rather better than the EU's.

All the same they keep voting for Socialists and at the top level getting outvoted by the English. If the collectivism isn't working for them then they're right to go whatever the short term consequences. I can't make that choice for them nor would I want to bias them. I only want them to stay with us if they believe in this union.

Edited March 13, 2017 by unbeliever

[L00b]

But will they still rely on the UK for defence, if they bail out? I would tell them to get yourselves an Army lf you want to be a lone nation, or more realistically an Air Force and Navy, as the only land border would be with England. I think it was that reasoning which helped Canada to convince Qubecers to vote to stay put several years ago .

You mean, like Ireland (the Republic) since on or around 1916? It has its own Army, Navy and Air Force

[unbeliever]

But will they still rely on the UK for defence, if they bail out? I would tell them to get yourselves an Army lf you want to be a lone nation, or more realistically an Air Force and Navy, as the only land border would be with England. I think it was that reasoning which helped Canada to convince Qubecers to vote to stay put several years ago .

 

Of course they would need an independent military. They will have to be an independent nation. Cameron never should have let them pretend otherwise. Home rule should not have been on the table last time and it will not be next time.

[L00b]

Of course they would need an independent military. They will have to be an independent nation. Cameron never should have let them pretend otherwise. Home rule should not have been on the table last time and it will not be next time.

I'd have thought that one can be squared reasonably easily: the UK can continue to lease Navy facilities in Faslane and Stornoway and for x years/decades, in exchange for an nth of the UK's khaki hardware and £ per year.

 

Job done, Scotland's got an 'army'

[unbeliever]

I'd have thought that one can be squared reasonably easily: the UK can continue to lease Navy facilities in Faslane and Stornoway and for x years/decades, in exchange for an nth of the UK's khaki hardware and £ per year.

 

Job done, Scotland's got an army

 

Quite.

I wonder if they'll join NATO.