The Consequences of Brexit (part 3)

[natjack]

Just out of interest I was researching exactly how many were in the Norman army and came across this:

 

William had achieved in a short space of time a victory that would alter the face of England forever. 7500 soldiers had taken over a country of one and a half million souls. He had conquered what the Romans, Saxons and Vikings had had to fight long and hard for a piece of. He truly deserved his name of William the Conqueror. England was the richest and most cultured in Europe. Christianity was established and the people had developed a God fearing mentality. The country was admired throughout Europe as a model of how it should be. William understood this well. It was in his interests to maintain it as a viable going concern. At least, this was his plan at the start. He seemed quite prepared to leave the country to administer itself. Unfortunately, things did not quite go to plan. From the time of Alfred the Great, England had developed into something apart from the rest of Europe. This was the reason it was the subject of constant invasion. Usually it was for the country's riches. William's invasion was for totally different reasons. It was in anger and pride. During the early stages of his administration, he installed many English Lords to positions of power, or at least those who accepted him as the new king. Another dichotomy was that he had to reward his own people who had supported him on this crusade. He possibly made a huge mistake by promising riches and wealth to them. He must have calculated that to introduce too many Normans to England in a short space of time could have destabilised the country and caused an anti Norman backlash.

 

Almost the same situation we're in now, with the EU? The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited April 28, 2017 by natjack

[Flexo]

There's thousands of posts to date on here alone explaining that, but all of them were conveniently badged and trap-door'd as Project Fear, or simply ignored (and the debate swiftly shifted) as too inconvenient.

 

From the way in which we've seen the Leave campaign's arguments crumble since the referendum, it should be badged Project Fantasy.

[I1L2T3]

Ok so I didn't think that through properly. Up until last year the choice was limited to one of we're in the EU.

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2017 at 09:38 ----------

 

 

Maybe then we should return to this conversation in 5 years to better judge the direction.

 

I think it's better to stop now and avoid the risk. Asking 65 million people to take a punt on an unproven leader with no plan just because she's better that the worst leader Labour have had since the 80s is madness.

 

Take the deal Cameron brokered and if we must leave let's transition out but by bit through gradual treaty change, and at the same time sort our benefits system out and also non-EU immigration

[silentP]

When choosing six numbers for the Lotto, or a horse at Cheltenham then "Taking a chance " is fine, all good fun.

 

When deciding upon a matter which will materially effect the lives of millions and the future generations to come however, it comes across as less than adequate.

 

Voting in the referendum I considered the options and decided to use Facts in order to reach a decision.

 

These were the facts which decided how I voted.

 

1, Despite its many faults ( which are undeniable ) the EU is the most successful and wealthiest Trade Bloc in the world.

 

2, The concern over immigration levels which many gave as a reason to leave was complete nonsense. Over 50% of immigration into the UK is from outside the EU and is therefore under the control of the British government and always has been. Therefore using it as a reason to leave makes no sense.

 

3, Another regularly voiced concern was our supposed lack of sovereignty. Since being involved with Europe from the EEC onward we have gone to war with Argentina, invaded Iraq, fought a war in Afghanistan, bombed Libya and held a parliamentary debate as to whether or not to go to war with Syria. Additionally we have had a nuclear deterrent partnership with a non EU nation, declined to join the Euro or sign up to the Schengen agreement.

 

All of which displays a healthy level of sovereignty in my view, and begs the question, what exactly do those Brexiteers who think it's a problem want us to be able to do which we are being prevented from at the moment?

 

4, The Leave campaign promised a load of nebulous advantages with regard to trade, which once we leave is going to make all our fortunes. No actual specifics were forthcoming and the facts are that Germany,France,Italy and the Netherlands are all currently more successful at exporting than we are while being member states of the EU. So what's been stopping us and what's going to change?

 

5, A countries productivity level is vital to ensure success and we aren't exactly pulling up any trees in that respect https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwib3PC28MbTAhVkIMAKHYWvAdwQFghTMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fbusiness%2Fthe-19-most-productive-countries-in-the-world-a7155311.html&usg=AFQjCNGKn4XEp4xzoav1eqbHwxKLgZPyxg what's going to change?

 

Add in that we have had one of the longest periods of peace between member nations in history and whilst not totally down to the EU it has certainly contributed to it.

 

Now those were thefacts which made up my mind to vote remain, could you please tell us the facts which decided you to vote Leave?

 

That was a momentous vote, it has effected everyone and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future.

 

Because your opinion,gut feeling, patriotism and wish to " take a chance " isn't really good enough is it,you must have some solid facts and rational thought behind such a decision, mustn't you?

 

My decision was based on what I understood, I couldn't do more than that could I.

 

In it's entirety the lead up to the referendum was awash with information that I had to make sense of. Clearly I don't have the business acumen of some on here so basing a decision on growth, GDP, whatever, was a tall order. It was a momentous vote yes, and I voted the way I wanted it to go. Now that may irk everyone that studied the fine detail before deciding one way or the other but that's how it is.

 

Why can't voting be surrounded by a belief! It's rhetorical.

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2017 at 11:36 ----------

 

I think it's better to stop now and avoid the risk. Asking 65 million people to take a punt on an unproven leader with no plan just because she's better that the worst leader Labour have had since the 80s is madness.

 

Take the deal Cameron brokered and if we must leave let's transition out but by bit through gradual treaty change, and at the same time sort our benefits system out and also non-EU immigration

 

Well I'm under orders to at least consider that option from my angry other half.

[Flexo]

Why can't voting be surrounded by a belief! It's rhetorical.

 

The problem is now the fantasy is colliding into reality.

 

When we look at the detail of what "leaving the EU" involves, we will be tying up the civil service for a decade or so and knackering up businesses and the economy. For a belief that there is untold gloriousness at the end?

 

The "hard Brexit" on offer is to turn the country into a tax haven for the rich where we hand over the country to the nutty far right of the Tory party to rip up protections for workers, the environment and so on. I think this matches the belief of very few leave voters.

[L00b]

@LOOb I have no planned intentions of leaving, if the opportunity arises however and it suited our needs in life then it's not say I wouldn't.

 

So why did you vote Leave? Protest vote?

My decision was based on what I understood, I couldn't do more than that could I.

 

In it's entirety the lead up to the referendum was awash with information that I had to make sense of. Clearly I don't have the business acumen of some on here so basing a decision on growth, GDP, whatever, was a tall order. It was a momentous vote yes, and I voted the way I wanted it to go. Now that may irk everyone that studied the fine detail before deciding one way or the other but that's how it is.

That is all plenty fair enough, and

Why can't voting be surrounded by a belief! It's rhetorical.

it certainly is the prerogative of any and every voter to express their choice on the ballot box based on belief rather than logic...

 

...but as I posted before, and on the assumption that you are an adult with a modicum of mental capacity (an easy assumption in view of your posts ) and so fully responsible for your actions, you don't get to dodge your own share of responsibility for the eventual outcome of that vote, if the vote happens to go your way: May & consorts are in charge due to your vote and all are acting on your collective behalf, not on that of the losing remainers, so whatever she's been doing since July 2016 and continues to do, and whatever happens, is solely on you and your 'side'.

 

None of that is irking or irksome, there's no malice or ranting whatsoever, it's simply reminding you of, and placing your before, your responsibilities. Whether you wanted them or not, whether you understood them or not.

 

In the above context, and moving on from it, to go back to your call for information making a case for leaving, the simple hard truth is that there isn't much, if any at all. If there was, it would have been collated by Leave.org and other campaigning bodies before February 2016, turned into a broad line plan, and presented to the electorate before the referendum. Or since. What we've had instead, ages after the referendum, and only under political duress (and each time at the 11th hour prior to a vote, such as the 'white paper' moments before the Article 50 vote), is a hodge-podge of meaningless statements of intent and platitudes. Now if that was designed to instil or restore confidence, well...

Edited April 28, 2017 by L00b

[Carlinate]

My decision was based on what I understood, I couldn't do more than that could I.

 

In it's entirety the lead up to the referendum was awash with information that I had to make sense of. Clearly I don't have the business acumen of some on here so basing a decision on growth, GDP, whatever, was a tall order. It was a momentous vote yes, and I voted the way I wanted it to go. Now that may irk everyone that studied the fine detail before deciding one way or the other but that's how it is.

 

Why can't voting be surrounded by a belief! It's rhetorical.

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2017 at 11:36 ----------

 

 

 

" Why can't voting be surrounded by a belief! "

 

Obviously you should vote in line with your belief. The question is, how did you arrive at that belief?

 

You are coming across as someone who voted on a whim, someone who thought " You know what, I fancy a change, what's the worst that could happen?"

 

Now, whilst that attitude is inconsiderate and glibly foolish, in general elections given our useless voting system and the fact that we get another chance in four years or so it isn't a total disaster.

 

But in a referendum every vote counts and there are no second chances.

 

Not to consider the facts is disgraceful and shows a lack of understanding as to what was taking place.

 

A great man once said " Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own fact ".

 

Opinions can be changed when facts are revealed but facts are solid.

 

They are all we have to go on when reaching a decision and not bothering to take them into consideration and voting on ' gut feel ' is simply ridiculous.

[tinfoilhat]

" Why can't voting be surrounded by a belief! "

 

Obviously you should vote in line with your belief. The question is, how did you arrive at that belief?

 

You are coming across as someone who voted on a whim, someone who thought " You know what, I fancy a change, what's the worst that could happen?"

 

Now, whilst that attitude is inconsiderate and glibly foolish, in general elections given our useless voting system and the fact that we get another chance in four years or so it isn't a total disaster.

 

But in a referendum every vote counts and there are no second chances.

 

Not to consider the facts is disgraceful and shows a lack of understanding as to what was taking place.

 

A great man once said " Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own fact ".

 

Opinions can be changed when facts are revealed but facts are solid.

 

They are all we have to go on when reaching a decision and not bothering to take them into consideration and voting on ' gut feel ' is simply ridiculous.

 

In defense to Slient P - hes far from alone, (he can defend himself) that are great swathes of this country who have no idea about politics or economics more than the very base level. There will be tens of thousands of people who will vote for both parties (although mainly labour to be honest) who wont know who the leader is, let alone what the policies are. You had that donut on newsnight who voted leave because of straight (or indeed bendy) bananas and told the world through the medium of TV she did just that.

 

There were a few more in Leeds on Look North (which I rarely watch - I now know why) who didnt know what who was who what the policies were. It will be gut feeling, what their parents, fave celeb on twitter or dog say they should vote for. Im not sure if its a new phenominon or not.

[silentP]

I still believe I made the right choice, arguing that point is not an easy affair on a forum that is largely pro remain, that was a bad choice

Had I have got embroiled in this before the referendum who knows.

 

Like I said, I made the decision to leave because the argument convinced me. What was needed as I spoke of before was a political system that fed us truths and not a barage of telling us 'the others are lying'

 

I suppose I could have veered toward remain (I hear you shout) but I didn't.

[tinfoilhat]

I still believe I made the right choice, arguing that point is not an easy affair on a forum that is largely pro remain, that was a bad choice

Had I have got embroiled in this before the referendum who knows.

 

Like I said, I made the decision to leave because the argument convinced me. What was needed as I spoke of before was a political system that fed us truths and not a barage of telling us 'the others are lying'

 

I suppose I could have veered toward remain (I hear you shout) but I didn't.

 

Id say its a pretty even split if Im honest. I was on the fence and, like yourself, pretty fed up of the barage of bull**** from both sides. The whole campaign, regardless of the result, is a stain on this country and should be highlighted as such to evey politician involved in it.

 

That said, I did learn quite alot on here on the run up to it.