L00b Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) No there are few if any facts to support leave but it's no lesser right for the choice to be made.That is wholly subjective however, depending entirely on one's attitude to gamble the current and future prosperity of the UK on what essentially amounted to a whim (in the absence of a clearly mapped path to re-establish that prosperity once out of the EU). Because, for the same reason (no plan), only hindsight can validate that choice to have been right. Ardent Leavers will still paint their voting majority as that choice, and will crow as and when the UK does good (if they're still around), and keep their head under the parapet in the meantime. But I'm content to believe that much of the Leave vote in June 2016 was actually a protest vote at failing domestic politics and domestic issues (the exact same with which the electorate resonated last week: austerity effects on NHS, education, welfare, <etc.>). Irrespective of how Brexit turns out, don't kid yourself that there won't be consequences for the older generations that pushed Brexit over the line: the youth laid the foundations for those on June 8, opposition parties are wise to the fact, and there's very little the Conservatives can do to try and stop that building momentum. The basic premise is elementarily simple: the Conservatives took the UK out of the EU with the help of the OAPs. That's enough for a generation or two of under 30s to put it in their collective necks at the ballot box for the next decade at least. Now, the talks are due to start this Monday, at May's request. In preparation, the EU did this: On Monday this week, the EU sent to London its positioning papers, officially outlining its negotiating stance ahead of talks, and had expected similar documents to come back in good time before discussions begin.[/Quote] The highly skilled negotiation team led by Mr Davis, in Mrs May's non-existent government, did this: nothing had been sent back to Brussels by Thursday night. One source across the Channel said it was “unbelievable” that the UK had still not sent the “basic” papers for the start of negotiations, with just over three days left before they begin. They added: “The talks are beginning on Monday. There are no positioning papers yet. It’s a basic thing that should happen beforehand. It doesn’t bode well.”[/Quote]Surprised? I'm not. "Lions led by donkeys" never seemed more apt. Edited June 16, 2017 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlinate Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) You're an outward-looking person who believes that we achieve greater things by working together, liberalising our politics and globalising our economy. You don't have to justify your beliefs. No I don't, but martin6 appeared to be suggesting that I should leave the country because I had no faith in my fellow countrymen. I was pointing out to him that in order to have faith in your fellow countrymen you would need some evidence that they knew what they were doing, and were not just acting on a whim with no viable plan to achieve success. As we're committed to leaving I really want it to work, and so I'm looking forward to martin6 reassuring me with his reasons for wanting to leave which I'm sure will be as factual as mine for wishing to remain. ---------- Post added 16-06-2017 at 10:27 ---------- @Carlinate.. it's right what you say. You have all the facts to support your decision to go with remain. Everything points to the fact that staying with the EU is both sensible and sound. There are no facts to support leaving, those that were handed to us were sketchy and blurred, a little frayed around the edges, but there are no facts that what the EU offers NOW will remain workable or intact in the future. Yes they'll do everything to try and keep it together but it isn't a fact that they will so it could be argued that 'remain' too would be basing their decision on an unknown future. Were the breakup of the EU to happen while we were still a member it would be an entirely different situation. It would effect all members equally and would be managed as well as it could be to try to avoid the worst outcome. What we have done is to place ourselves in opposition to the wealthiest Trade Bloc in the World. They are our biggest single trading partner with 44% of our exports needing EU access. They export less than 10% of EU total exports to the UK. Also I do find the Brexiteers obvious wish for the EU to fail to be slightly pathetic. Let's face it they're beginning to realise that we've made a huge mistake and are now clinging onto the hope that the EU will follow us into the unknown. What the British don't seem to get is that most European countries are pro EU. Within living memory they had warfare in their lands and there is no possibility of that happening again while they are in a common market with constant contact. The Irish are pro EU because for hundreds of years as part of the UK they were treat appallingly by Westminster. Since joining the EU they have overtaken every part of the UK in prosperity with the exception of the South East of England and have been the fastest growing economy in Europe over the last four years. The EU will change but it won't fail, the benefits outweigh the difficulties. Hoping for its demise so our mistake won't look so bad is sad. ---------- Post added 16-06-2017 at 10:38 ---------- Irrespective of how Brexit turns out, don't kid yourself that there won't be consequences for the older generations that pushed Brexit over the line: the youth laid the foundations for those on June 8, opposition parties are wise to the fact, and there's very little the Conservatives can do to try and stop that building momentum. The basic premise is elementarily simple: the Conservatives took the UK out of the EU with the help of the OAPs. That's enough for a generation or two of under 30s to put it in their collective necks at the ballot box for the next decade at least. As I'm 70 and voted remain in an attempt to ensure the future prospects of my grandchildren I resent your blatant ageism! Edited June 16, 2017 by Carlinate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentP Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Hoping for its demise so our mistake won't look so bad is sad. Agreed but I've not implied that, in fact somewhere among these posts is a hope that it works for them. As I'm 70 and voted remain in an attempt to ensure the future prospects of my grandchildren I resent your blatant ageism! I doubt the remark is personal. Somewhere in Sheffield there's a big bucket of tar and every now and then brushes are dipped. Edited June 16, 2017 by nikki-red fixed quote tags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlinate Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) I doubt the remark is personal. Somewhere in Sheffield there's a big bucket of tar and every now and then brushes are dipped. No I didn't think it was personal, but couldn't let it by without comment. Not all of us old un's are xenophobic moaners wanting to blame all our woes on foreigners. Edited June 16, 2017 by nikki-red fixed the quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentP Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) No I didn't think it was personal, but couldn't let it by without comment. Not all of us old un's are xenophobic moaners wanting to blame all our woes on foreigners. Indeed we are not But I'm content to believe that much of the Leave vote in June 2016 was actually a protest vote at failing domestic politics and domestic issues (the exact same with which the electorate resonated last week: austerity effects on NHS, education, welfare, <etc.>). . It's certainly a more than interesting theory you have there. The question begs then, is it more likely that people will be listened to, probably not, at least not with any fervour. Actions by people for failings and or oppression are commonplace aren't they. If what you say is correct and the vote was viewed as an offer to protest then why not! Edited June 16, 2017 by nikki-red fixed quote tag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Ok, gotcha now. We've been a royal pain haven't we. I get why people don't like us which is a shame, coz take away the stuffed shirts that almost run this country and we are really quite nice, amiable even. To emphasise the buoyancy point: http://time.com/4820283/european-union-poll-brexit/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentP Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 To emphasise the buoyancy point: http://time.com/4820283/european-union-poll-brexit/ Thank you but I didn't doubt you. Interesting how they view our leaving will be a bad thing for Europe though as well as ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Thank you but I didn't doubt you. Interesting how they view our leaving will be a bad thing for Europe though as well as ourselves. I know you didn't doubt me, just came across it by accident It has been a very interesting event (Brexit) for the EU. It seems to have galvanised an understanding of the EU with a lot of citizens. As Brexit made the news across the continent it seems to have sparked people thinking about what the EU does for them and, in general, this seems to have resulted in a more positive outlook. Young people in particular are all of a sudden waking up to the fact that they have to voice their opinion if they want it to be relevant. In the Netherlands one paper opened on the first day after Brexit with - 'old guard trip up the young in shock Brexit result'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentP Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I know you didn't doubt me, just came across it by accident It has been a very interesting event (Brexit) for the EU. It seems to have galvanised an understanding of the EU with a lot of citizens. As Brexit made the news across the continent it seems to have sparked people thinking about what the EU does for them and, in general, this seems to have resulted in a more positive outlook. Young people in particular are all of a sudden waking up to the fact that they have to voice their opinion if they want it to be relevant. In the Netherlands one paper opened on the first day after Brexit with - 'old guard trip up the young in shock Brexit result'. If only the young had have galvanised themselves for IN or OUT we would definitely not be having this debate. The Union needs reforms everyone knows that so if Britain's exit does that, alles is goed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altus Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 It's certainly a more than interesting theory you have there. The question begs then, is it more likely that people will be listened to, probably not, at least not with any fervour. Actions by people for failings and or oppression are commonplace aren't they. If what you say is correct and the vote was viewed as an offer to protest then why not! Because what they've voted for is going to make what they were protesting about worse/longer lasting/harder to solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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