Scientists and knowledge

[Jacktari]

Hmmm...

 

... well I've been giving this a bit of thought, and in the interests of forum members I have just carried out my own bit of scientific research into this phenomenon by constructing a model of the Earth (not life-sized obviously) from a packet of Jaffa cakes.

 

Having dunked my creation for a few minutes in a mug of lukewarm coffee to simulate the effects of pumping vast amounts of liquid into the Earth's core (obviously), I can announce that the final outcome was... bits fell off!

 

So, although I accept that my experiment was not carried out under strict laboratory conditions (and my findings are admittedly from a sample of 1), I am nevertheless relieved (like I suspect most forum members will be) that we don't live in the Southern Hemisphere...

 

Is that how you base most of your scientific knowledge?

Sarcasm and Jaffa cakes?

[apelike]

So here's a general question... inspired by the fracking thread because I can see where this is going...

 

When a car mechanic tells you a bearing needs swapping people respect his knowledge and experience.

 

When a plumber knows more about plumbing than you do you assume her arrogant for knowing about her trade?

 

So why does everyone immediately distrust scientists and doctors and call them arrogant when they manifestly know more than you?

 

Serious question.

 

A doctor or scientist may have better knowledge, experience and know more but that does not necessarily mean they are correct in every situation. Is it also not arrogant to actually state that these people know more than others? as arrogance is defined as a display of superiority, self importance or overbearing pride?

[Obelix]

Hmmm...

 

... well I've been giving this a bit of thought, and in the interests of forum members I have just carried out my own bit of scientific research into this phenomenon by constructing a model of the Earth (not life-sized obviously) from a packet of Jaffa cakes.

 

Having dunked my creation for a few minutes in a mug of lukewarm coffee to simulate the effects of pumping vast amounts of liquid into the Earth's core (obviously), I can announce that the final outcome was... bits fell off!

 

So, although I accept that my experiment was not carried out under strict laboratory conditions (and my findings are admittedly from a sample of 1), I am nevertheless relieved (like I suspect most forum members will be) that we don't live in the Southern Hemisphere...

 

But the Earth spins.... so surely the dangerous bits would be at the Equator when all the bits get spun off there!

 

---------- Post added 23-03-2017 at 22:15 ----------

 

Is that how you base most of your scientific knowledge?

Sarcasm and Jaffa cakes?

 

I think it was more humour...

 

---------- Post added 23-03-2017 at 22:17 ----------

 

A doctor or scientist may have better knowledge, experience and know more but that does not necessarily mean they are correct in every situation. Is it also not arrogant to actually state that these people know more than others? as arrogance is defined as a display of superiority, self importance or overbearing pride?

 

I dont think so no. Unless you want a brain surgeon or a car mechanic that doesnt know what they are doing you have to deal with the fact that some people know more than you about some things..

 

The fact that you jumped in and immediately had to say that they are not always correct kind of proves my point....

 

---------- Post added 23-03-2017 at 22:21 ----------

 

I would think it is because no one really knows what the final effects may be of fracturing sections of the earths structure.

 

People will naturally be wary of the opinion of scientists and engineers in the pay of concerns whose aims are inimical to the general well being.

 

You assume that their aims are inimical to the general well being. Why? That's the sort of weasel worded assumption that has no place in debate.

 

You say the scientists and engineers are in the pay of the concerns. Are they? I would be rather suprised if they all are because thats not how research works.

 

As for not knowing - we do know. There is a lot of data from gas and oil drilling, and from natural geologic processes, coal mining, sulphur mining, potash, clay, chalk, all these build up a vast body of knowledge such that we do know what will happen.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Obelix

[L00b]

Random thoughts:

I appreciated them hugely, all that typing was not wasted on me, H

 

Short answer to OP question: because no-one, but no-one, finds it easy or normal to feel inferior (rightly or wrongly, doesn't matter) when faced with or interacting with such people. Most people in that situation just paint it as arrogance or superiority, when in fact it's just their own inferiority complex kicking in as psychological defence.

 

It's a human, perception thing. Understanding it forms the bedrock of "bedside manner" for relevant professionals: for a same problem requiring the same scientific knowledge/application resulting in the same advice or conclusion, those without good BM are invariably thought of as arrogant, those with good BM command respect.

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by L00b

[Alcoblog]

As a scientist of considerable repute, as well as mathematician, I take it as a compliment when people question me … they simply don't understand the complexities of my work.

 

Take for instance my work in mathematics and computing. 'Alcorithms' have completely transformed the way computers work, allowing much, much faster processing speeds. Computer programs such as Tetris and Prince of Persia now work at lightening speed … Tomb Raider is now a doddle.

 

In biology, my work on DNA using Alcorithms for computer modelling, has produced astounding new discoveries. Up until recently, it was thought that apart from the M/F chromosones, there were only twenty two pairs. I have now discovered another eight with the possibility of another couple by the back end of next week. Eat your heart out Crick and Watson!

 

Of course, most reading this will laugh at my discoveries just because they are incapable of comprehending. It matters not to me. Water off a dog's back.

[Padders]

Is that how you base most of your scientific knowledge?

Sarcasm and Jaffa cakes?

 

made me laugh, very droll.

[tinfoilhat]

So here's a general question... inspired by the fracking thread because I can see where this is going...

 

When a car mechanic tells you a bearing needs swapping people respect his knowledge and experience.

 

When a plumber knows more about plumbing than you do you assume her arrogant for knowing about her trade?

 

So why does everyone immediately distrust scientists and doctors and call them arrogant when they manifestly know more than you?

 

Serious question.

 

I'm not as well read or qualified as many on this thread so I'll speak for the luddites......

 

You use plumbing and car mechanics - interesting choices. We believe them because if your car won't start or you are ankle deep in water you'll take anything to get it moving. Cant be fixed? Well you can get a second opinion but somebody somewhere will (or rather to nth degree) will know what's what because it's been designed, tested and built by someone or a team of someone. If you ignore cost implications somebody somewhere will give you definative answer.

 

Aircraft and indeed their crashes sort of prove it - is it minor component that defective on this plane or the whole fleet, weather conditions, pilot training or errors - there's a long list but (and I've watched a lot of these) very very rarely competing theories on why a plane crashed.

 

But in many fields of science there are many conflicting peer reviewed studies. As Hecate touched on, you'll find competing "definative" theories every other week in the express. That confuses people because they want answers and don't want them (or their position on the subject - as l00b mention) questioned or changed. And as science is pretty fluid, things change. The earth was flat, now it isn't. Man came from god, now (unless you're religious or Shane warne) it's evolution. You get the idea.

Edited March 24, 2017 by tinfoilhat

[medusa]

I think that the very way that science works, with theories and hypotheses which are tested and reviewed over time, is not very easy for people who like facts and certainty to understand or keep in their mind in a way in which they can cope.

 

The wholesale changes of some things over time don't help either. They may be changing because we understand things better, but if they're changing then they're clearly just someone's opinion, right?

[apelike]

---------- Post added 23-03-2017 at 22:17 ----------

 

I dont think so no. Unless you want a brain surgeon or a car mechanic that doesnt know what they are doing you have to deal with the fact that some people know more than you about some things..

 

But you asked a serious question and I gave a clear answer in that just because they have this knowledge does not mean that they make mistakes. Scientists also get things wrong as well. Some believe in man made global warming some don't. Some believe in multiverses some don't. Some believe in super symmetry some don't. One minute we are being told by doctors aspirin is bad the next we are told its good and that's just a few examples. Maybe you have never had a wrong diagnosis or prescribed medicine that you were on record as being allergic to but I and many others have, so much for greater knowledge.

 

Plenty of documentation out there about car mechanics ripping people off for bogus repairs, information also that surgeons have done bodge operations with wrong bits removed and dressings and instruments being left in.

 

 

The fact that you jumped in and immediately had to say that they are not always correct kind of proves my point....

 

The fact that you stated that also proves mine!

Edited March 24, 2017 by apelike

[Obelix]

But you asked a serious question and I gave a clear answer in that just because they have this knowledge does not mean that they make mistakes.

 

I dont think I suggested otherwise. In fact I dont think I said anything about mistakes. Its interesting though that you say mistakes and like many people you see some scientist make a mistake and conflate that to all. It's almost invariably that way.

 

But with car mechanics, or plumbers, if they make a mistake then it's not all of them that are fingered with the brush of ineptitude. Just that particular one and you then go and find a different one to change the oil or fix the tap... which leads us back to the why people behave this way.

 

Scientists also get things wrong as well. Some believe in man made global warming some don't. Some believe in multiverses some don't. Some believe in super symmetry some don't.

 

That doesnt mean that they have things wrong. It means that the issue isnt sufficiently well decided (in the case of global warming though it is sufficienty decided - there is just a very vocal minorty lead by the Orange in Chief) and there are still conflicting views on what science says. People see this and assume scientists are making mistakes, when in actuality it's a lack of understanding on how the scientific process works. Science in general could do more perhaps to show people how decisions are reached.

 

One minute we are being told by doctors aspirin is bad the next we are told its good and that's just a few examples.

 

Maybe aspirin is bad and good. It's very good if you are having a heart attack but very bad if you have an aneyurism or intracranial bleed...

 

Maybe you have never had a wrong diagnosis or prescribed medicine that you were on record as being allergic to but I and many others have, so much for greater knowledge.

 

That's an error of process though and not reason to distrust in general. Going back to a car mechanic if someone put the wrong oil in your car you wouldnt choose to distrust every mechanic in the country would you? You might well just choose the few that work in that garage, or perhaps just the one that made the mistake.

 

Plenty of documentation out there about car mechanics ripping people off for bogus repairs, information also that surgeons have done bodge operations with wrong bits removed and dressings and instruments being left in.

 

See above - do you think that all surgeons are blunderers and not the be trusted? Despite the rhetoric I suspect the answer is no, deep down..

 

 

The fact that you stated that also proves mine!

 

Proves what?