Atheists are more intelligent than Religious people

[Carlinate]

Then you misunderstand the argument.

 

It is not physically impossible to prove or disprove the existence of life on other planets given time and development. It might take many tens of thousands of years, and it might involve technologies that don't exist yet, but it isn't physically impossible.

 

Proving the existence or non existence of something that doesn't exist (or something with the same attributes that god has..) is physically impossible. It doesn't matter how many tens of thousands of years or how many new technologies development, it will remain physically impossible.

 

Invent something that maps every single atom and quark in the universe and it wouldn't prove that god doesn't exist, he can just be outside the physical universe, or something unmeasurable by that machine etc.

 

When something is absolutely impossible to prove or disprove, it is silly that people use the language of 'I'm open minded etc etc' or 'We can't prove it either way etc etc' when they don't use that language, or indeed live their lives, with that mindset in any other scenario.

 

 

Could you explain a little more about these people that don't ever accept that they don't know something?

 

Presumably they have an absolute certainty about everything, and no doubt ever crosses their mind?

 

I'm aware that there are a few examples who post on here but I wasn't aware it was that widespread.

 

Have you heard the famous story of Socrates?

 

People, including the Oracle of Delphi kept telling him that he was the wisest man of all. he couldn't believe that that was true because of all the things that he knew he didn't know.

 

So, instead of letting the praise go to his head and basking in the admiration he set out to prove them wrong.

 

In order to do so he visited all the other contenders for the title and questioned them.

 

Each of them assured him that they did in fact know everything that there was to know.

 

At which point Socrates knew that he was in fact the wisest of them all because he alone was prepared to admit his own ignorance rather than pretend to know something he did not.

 

Still, maybe you know better.

[Robin-H]

Could you explain a little more about these people that don't ever accept that they don't know something?

 

Presumably they have an absolute certainty about everything, and no doubt ever crosses their mind?

 

I'm aware that there are a few examples who post on here but I wasn't aware it was that widespread.

 

Have you heard the famous story of Socrates?

 

People, including the Oracle of Delphi kept telling him that he was the wisest man of all. he couldn't believe that that was true because of all the things that he knew he didn't know.

 

So, instead of letting the praise go to his head and basking in the admiration he set out to prove them wrong.

 

In order to do so he visited all the other contenders for the title and questioned them.

 

Each of them assured him that they did in fact know everything that there was to know.

 

At which point Socrates knew that he was in fact the wisest of them all because he alone was prepared to admit his own ignorance rather than pretend to know something he did not.

 

Still, maybe you know better.

 

Either you genuinely don't understand the point I (and others) are making, or you are deliberately misunderstanding them in order to decline from answering it.

 

You have drawn conclusions from my statement that if you understood my statement, you would not draw.

 

Nowhere have I said that people have 'absolute certainty about everything' . Absolutely nowhere. Nowhere have I stated that people 'don't ever accept that they don't know something' .

 

There are millions of millions of things that I don't know. Some of them I don't know because I have not learnt about them, like car mechanics, or the lifecycle of the Patagonian tooth fish.

 

There are other things that I don't know because at the moment nobody knows as we, as a civilisation, don't posses the knowledge or technology possible to know. I don't know what caused the big bang. I don't know if there is life outside of Earth.

 

There are other things that are absolutely impossible to ever know (or prove). This category is made up of proving the non existence (or existence) of things that are outside science and nature.

 

You can never ever prove that god doesn't exist. You can never ever prove that Zeus doesn't exist. You can never ever prove that invisible unicorns don't exist, or that Elvis isn't reincarnated as a worm in Alaska, or any other supernatural nonsense that I care to make up.

 

It is sensible to say that you don't know things. Of course it is.

 

It is not sensible to say you don't know whether God exists if you are not willing to say the same about things with the exact same level of proof. That includes Zeus, Santa, invisible unicorns, and Elvis worms.

[Carlinate]

Either you genuinely don't understand the point I (and others) are making, or you are deliberately misunderstanding them in order to decline from answering it.

 

You have drawn conclusions from my statement that if you understood my statement, you would not draw.

 

Nowhere have I said that people have 'absolute certainty about everything' . Absolutely nowhere. Nowhere have I stated that people 'don't ever accept that they don't know something' .

 

There are millions of millions of things that I don't know. Some of them I don't know because I have not learnt about them, like car mechanics, or the lifecycle of the Patagonian tooth fish.

 

There are other things that I don't know because at the moment nobody knows as we, as a civilisation, don't posses the knowledge or technology possible to know. I don't know what caused the big bang. I don't know if there is life outside of Earth.

 

There are other things that are absolutely impossible to ever know (or prove). This category is made up of proving the non existence (or existence) of things that are outside science and nature.

 

You can never ever prove that god doesn't exist. You can never ever prove that Zeus doesn't exist. You can never ever prove that invisible unicorns don't exist, or that Elvis isn't reincarnated as a worm in Alaska, or any other supernatural nonsense that I care to make up.

 

It is sensible to say that you don't know things. Of course it is.

 

It is not sensible to say you don't know whether God exists if you are not willing to say the same about things with the exact same level of proof. That includes Zeus, Santa, invisible unicorns, and Elvis worms.

 

Nowhere have you said that ' people have absolute certainty about everything ', or that ' people don't ever accept that they don't know something .'

 

What you did say however, was ' it is silly that people use the language of " I'm open minded etc etc " or " we can't prove it either way etc etc ."

 

You then went on to say when they don't use that language, or indeed live their lives with that mindset in any other scenario. "

 

Now, if people in their normal lives never say that they're open minded about anything, or never accept that it is not possible to prove something then the obvious implication from that is that no matter what the subject they believe that they know the answer.

 

Not sure who your friends and acquaintances are, but certainly mine will from time to time admit that they are uncertain about something.

[Robin-H]

Nowhere have you said that ' people have absolute certainty about everything ', or that ' people don't ever accept that they don't know something .'

 

What you did say however, was ' it is silly that people use the language of " I'm open minded etc etc " or " we can't prove it either way etc etc ."

 

You then went on to say when they don't use that language, or indeed live their lives with that mindset in any other scenario. "

 

Now, if people in their normal lives never say that they're open minded about anything, or never accept that it is not possible to prove something then the obvious implication from that is that no matter what the subject they believe that they know the answer.

 

Not sure who your friends and acquaintances are, but certainly mine will from time to time admit that they are uncertain about something.

 

And if you've read my replies you'll know exactly to what I was referring. I even clarified in my last post so there should be no room for doubt.

 

I'll say it again. Nowhere have I said people should not be open minded about anything. I'm amazed you can even claim that. Indeed, I even pointed out that it is fine to be open minded about everything. What isn't fine, and doesn't make logical sense, is to be open minded about some things, but not other things that have the exact same level of proof.

 

When I mention 'any other scenario' it was specifically about any other scenario where the same principles of proof of non existence exist. I thought that was blatantly clear from the context of that comment, but for avoidance of doubt, I'll reiterate that point here.

 

I said that is was silly for people to be open minded about things for which it is absolutely impossible to prove if they pick and choose what things to apply that logic to. By all means, be open minded about god, but you would have to equally open minded about (and I'll repeat myself to hopefully get the point across this time) Zeus, Santa, invisible unicorns, and Elvis worms.

[Carlinate]

 

I said that is was silly for people to be open minded about things for which it is absolutely impossible to prove if they pick and choose what things to apply that logic to. By all means, be open minded about god, but you would have to equally open minded about (and I'll repeat myself to hopefully get the point across this time) Zeus, Santa, invisible unicorns, and Elvis worms.

 

So, when you said, in the final paragraph of your post In any other scenario you didn't actually mean in any other scenario?

 

Not when asked which clubs will win the four divisional league titles next season and who will score the winning goal in the FA cup for instance, or who the next Pope will be?

 

Questions which at this point are mere conjecture and unprovable, and whilst you could take a guess and turn out right, you could also take a guess on the existence of god and wind up at the pearly gates.

 

You meant in certain specific scenarios, got it.

 

As for the existence of God, Zeus and Santa I don't think people are quite understanding the position taken by an agnostic.

 

Not believing, nor disbelieving. without proof and at the same time accepting that that proof will not be produced means that asking an agnostic to come up with proof about those things is a bit daft.

 

You could try that nonsense on with a theist I suppose but be careful which one you choose if you're going to do it face to face.

 

Personally, I believe that asking someone to prove the existence or non existence of a character which is accepted as fictional shows a level of intellect commensurate to that of a child.

[Robin-H]

So, when you said, in the final paragraph of your post In any other scenario you didn't actually mean in any other scenario?

 

Not when asked which clubs will win the four divisional league titles next season and who will score the winning goal in the FA cup for instance, or who the next Pope will be?

 

Questions which at this point are mere conjecture and unprovable, and whilst you could take a guess and turn out right, you could also take a guess on the existence of god and wind up at the pearly gates.

 

You meant in certain specific scenarios, got it.

 

As for the existence of God, Zeus and Santa I don't think people are quite understanding the position taken by an agnostic.

 

Not believing, nor disbelieving. without proof and at the same time accepting that that proof will not be produced means that asking an agnostic to come up with proof about those things is a bit daft.

 

You could try that nonsense on with a theist I suppose but be careful which one you choose if you're going to do it face to face.

 

Personally, I believe that asking someone to prove the existence or non existence of a character which is accepted as fictional shows a level of intellect commensurate to that of a child.

 

You're still not getting it. I'm beginning to think you're deliberately not reading my replies.

 

I have not said that agnostics need to be asked for proof.

 

I am well aware that agnosticism is belief that the lack of proof makes taking one side over the other (in their eyes) problematic. It wouldn't make sense at all to ask agnostics for proof, it would be incredibly daft yes - if they had proof they wouldn't be agnostic!

[Carlinate]

You're still not getting it. I'm beginning to think you're deliberately not reading my replies.

 

I have not said that agnostics need to be asked for proof.

 

I am well aware that agnosticism is belief that the lack of proof makes taking one side over the other (in their eyes) problematic. It wouldn't make sense at all to ask agnostics for proof, it would be incredibly daft yes - if they had proof they wouldn't be agnostic!

 

To be honest, I'm getting that bored with this thread that I'm not particularly concentrating on the replies.

 

Not your fault, you're not the one boring my soul cases out.

 

Someone brought up the ridiculous santa nonsense and then you referred to it so that is why I made the comment in the last post.

 

Thankfully I'm abroad for ten days after tomorrow, and as I don't bother with the internet in foreign parts I will hopefully return after this thread has died the death.

[Robin-H]

To be honest, I'm getting that bored with this thread that I'm not particularly concentrating on the replies.

 

Not your fault, you're not the one boring my soul cases out.

 

Someone brought up the ridiculous santa nonsense and then you referred to it so that is why I made the comment in the last post.

 

Thankfully I'm abroad for ten days after tomorrow, and as I don't bother with the internet in foreign parts I will hopefully return after this thread has died the death.

 

Fair enough. I'm sure it will have. Enjoy your holiday.

[Carlinate]

Fair enough. I'm sure it will have. Enjoy your holiday.

 

Thanks, will do, be good.

[Cyclone]

Still desperately avoiding the santa analogy I see.

 

I'm sure the thread will end since it's just you arguing with a whole bunch of people who are all trying to explain the same thing to you.