Are the Tories trying to lose the election?

[panzer1]

I have given my reasons, I have lived under socialist labour in the 70s where I worried over paying my bills due to their high borrow tax and spend agenda. Like I say Corbyn is a rich kid from a rich family, never had a real job, rails against things he had, elite schools etc, goes back on his beliefs ( anti EU all his political life till last year), supports terrorism ( film clips all there on the internet).

Would not vote for him and his other hypocrites, i.e racist Abbott sending her kids to private school, if they were the only choice on the ballot paper.

Even now will not rule out going into coalition with SNP and Sinn Fein, SNP ok but Sinn Fein are just legalised terrorists, want no part of Labour.

As I write this I look across the road to a building that is 2 flats and 2 bedsits all occupied by unemployed, they are currently revvingup their land rover and 2 off road bikes. They will benefit from Corbyn with more benefits but not I. Still surprised they are up this early disturbing the peace.

[silentP]

Blair wasn't a socialist so really shouldn't be included in that analysis. All the lines about Labour taking the country back to the 70s are such sad meaningless soundbites from the Tories being regurgitated by people thinking they are being original. If you don't want to vote for Corbyn then don't, but please come up with YOUR own reasons why not rather than media friendly one-liners.

 

Corbyn hates the UK? Why do you think that?

Abbot is a muppet and I'd really rather she wasn't in the shadow cabinet, but I still prefer her to Jeremy Hunt (Just. Close call.)

 

I honestly think you are just seeing what you want to see about Corbyn. One of us is massively deluded clearly. I see someone genuine, you see an absolute manipulative liar. Perhaps it's because I've seen Corbyn speak in person that makes me believe him, whereas I suspect most of what you think about him is formed from someone else's opinion through the media?

 

This is where it all comes across undone for me. Tory voters are sheep in their beliefs that May is the right person whereas your good self and a few others lap up Corbyn's words with unwavering trust. I don't understand why one is so right and another so wrong.

 

---------- Post added 02-06-2017 at 10:47 ----------

 

I have given my reasons, I have lived under socialist labour in the 70s where I worried over paying my bills due to their high borrow tax and spend agenda. Like I say Corbyn is a rich kid from a rich family, never had a real job, rails against things he had, elite schools etc, goes back on his beliefs ( anti EU all his political life till last year), supports terrorism ( film clips all there on the internet).

Would not vote for him and his other hypocrites, i.e racist Abbott sending her kids to private school, if they were the only choice on the ballot paper.

Even now will not rule out going into coalition with SNP and Sinn Fein, SNP ok but Sinn Fein are just legalised terrorists, want no part of Labour.

As I write this I look across the road to a building that is 2 flats and 2 bedsits all occupied by unemployed, they are currently revvingup their land rover and 2 off road bikes. They will benefit from Corbyn with more benefits but not I. Still surprised they are up this early disturbing the peace.

 

..and this. If he were Tory he'd be branded an upper class (take your pick) out for his own kind, it's crazy.

[sgtkate]

This is where it all comes across undone for me. Tory voters are sheep in their beliefs that May is the right person whereas your good self and a few others lap up Corbyn's words with unwavering trust. I don't understand why one is so right and another so wrong.

 

---------- Post added 02-06-2017 at 10:47 ----------

 

 

..and this. If he were Tory he'd be branded an upper class (take your pick) out for his own kind, it's crazy.

 

But I'm not saying tory voters are sheep. Many people would definitely be better off under the Tories, but I struggle to understand who average working class would be. The numbers don't add up for that to make sense on a purely financial basis. My disagreement with Panzer isn't over his/her voting stance it's over the rationale for it, saying the Labour are for 'me me me' people.

 

And the reason why I trust Corbyn more is because he's been consistent. He's never wanted to be the Labour leader, much preferred being a rebel (whether good or bad thing I'm not sure!), he was asked to stand as the 'token socialist' candidate as all the others left wingers of the party had stood previously so it was viewed as his turn...no one expected him to get voted in, let alone him. He's not perfect in anyway, he's clearly decided to ignore his own views over the EU and trident to appease his party but at least with Trident he's actually been honest about it whereas with the EU he's tried to pretend he's not a leaver at heart. But that doesn't differ from May's saying 'to deliver Brexit you have to believe in Brexit' when she was a remain campaigner! Neither are exactly paragons of honesty with Brexit are they?

May on the other hand actively sought out the leadership of the party, wasn't elected by her party members, has changed her mind on several major policy opinions since she became leader and has a history of failing to achieve targets she set herself (immigration for one).

Perhaps the last point is unfair as Corbyn has been a backbencher therefore has no position we can critique and perhaps he would have failed as badly as May? We can't say as he's never had a chance. Corbyn has won peace prizes, voted consistently about war, weapons sales, socialist policies his entire time in parliament. He takes time to speak to people without stage management whereas so far May has done almost only stage managed and handpicked discussions with voters.

 

I just can't see a reason why Corbyn wouldn't be genuine about his wants and desires especially as so many people had written him off and yet he still carried on with his flavour of Labour. Theresa May seems to be the populist out of the 2 of them, changing tack depending on how each policy is being taken by the electorate.

 

Regardless, like all elections this should be about the entire party and not just the figurehead as it will be the whole of the house that affects our future not just the ones having a row at PM QT. Vote for policies, not people.

 

Answering the final point, I know nothing about May's background and it doesn't interest me. Same as Corbyn's doesn't interest me either. It's about what they do now that matters and not whether they grew up rich or poor. Thatcher grew up poor and yet went on to cause suffering to some of own family and friends because she believed in what she was doing. I may disagree vehemently with her policies but to stick to what you believe in so strongly that you are prepared to shaft some of your 'own people' takes guts.

Edited June 2, 2017 by sgtkate

[silentP]

A well reasoned post sgtkate but (and without pointing fingers) I just find some voters fickle and blind on both sides. A pattern of tarnishing not dissimilar from the political playing field which they are quick to jump on. Like I said, crazy.

[sgtkate]

A well reasoned post sgtkate but (and without pointing fingers) I just find some voters fickle and blind on both sides. A pattern of tarnishing not dissimilar from the political playing field which they are quick to jump on. Like I said, crazy.

 

I'm knowingly blind, but try not to be. I will give credit to the Tories when I think they deserve it and I will be critical of the left when they are wrong as well. I do accept I am biased, but at least being aware means I can try not to be!

[Anna B]

Is this criticising Labour or the Tories? I genuinely can't tell. To me it reads like the exact reason why I won't vote Tory because it really is all about them. I would get hit some of Labours tax rises and under a Labour government I would expect to pay more tax in general and I have no problem with that. I earn above average income therefore I don't mind paying a bit more. I think of it this way, if I pay a few hundred or even a grand more a year in tax that goes to make sure my local hospital and school is maintained, police numbers aren't cut, roads are maintained. What could I personally buy for £1k a year? I might be able to afford private healthcare but they don't cover emergency care so I still need my local A&E. I couldn't afford a private school. I couldn't afford to maintain the roads I drive on (but could buy new car suspension!). I couldn't afford to hire private security. Things only work when everyone contributes to it, so for me the only solution is a more socialist way of working for everyone.

 

Kate, I love all of this post, (but I've highlighted a bit for emphasis.) Exactly the right attitude. Thankyou. What a pity more people don't think like you. The world would be better place.

 

I understand you are probably going to vote green, good for you, I like them too, and I may well support them in future, but I'm giving Jeremy Corbyn my support this time for making a very brave and necessary stand against the Establishment and the Elite. If he wins I believe he's hoping to work with the Greens, they have a lot in common.

 

Thanks again.

[panzer1]

Yes very welll reasoned post SgtKate but you ask to look past the individual and see the policies. How can you look past the individuals such as Abbott who espouses about state education and that "the few" can afford to send their kids to private education and she does exactly the same, she is a hypocrite. So the policies are not even worthy of their authors sticking to them.

 

Corbyn may well be a very nice man but I do not trust labour on Brexit and at this present time I believe the future prosperity of this country hinges on a decent deal.Corbyn has stated he will not walk away without a deal so the EU knowing this will offer him a bad deal knowing he will accept, this is a bad negotiating stance by anybody's view. If he gets in we will leave the EU in name only, still have immigration, ECJ, probably pay more money than now, just do not trust them to deliver.

 

Last but not least I have watched over the last few months th actions of the momentum members and find them disgusting and I equate them to the bullying despicable brownshirts , if you disagree with Corbyn or Labour they harangue and vilify you and that's before I even get on to the anti semitism. So no could never vote for the current Labour Party and pleased to say that Just had breakfast with four friends who were all labour voters and of those four there are three voting Tory and one voting UKIP. They live in my same MP area so that is five votes labour has lost, I am working on trying to get the UKIP voter to move to Tory.

[sgtkate]

Yes very welll reasoned post SgtKate but you ask to look past the individual and see the policies. How can you look past the individuals such as Abbott who espouses about state education and that "the few" can afford to send their kids to private education and she does exactly the same, she is a hypocrite. So the policies are not even worthy of their authors sticking to them.

 

Corbyn may well be a very nice man but I do not trust labour on Brexit and at this present time I believe the future prosperity of this country hinges on a decent deal.Corbyn has stated he will not walk away without a deal so the EU knowing this will offer him a bad deal knowing he will accept, this is a bad negotiating stance by anybody's view. If he gets in we will leave the EU in name only, still have immigration, ECJ, probably pay more money than now, just do not trust them to deliver.

 

Last but not least I have watched over the last few months th actions of the momentum members and find them disgusting and I equate them to the bullying despicable brownshirts , if you disagree with Corbyn or Labour they harangue and vilify you and that's before I even get on to the anti semitism. So no could never vote for the current Labour Party and pleased to say that Just had breakfast with four friends who were all labour voters and of those four there are three voting Tory and one voting UKIP. They live in my same MP area so that is five votes labour has lost, I am working on trying to get the UKIP voter to move to Tory.

 

I'm not a momentum fan either to be honest. I think they've been slightly misrepresented in that they aren't as hostile or nasty as they appear in the press but they've not exactly been upstanding and welcoming!

 

Panzer, we disagree but for once on here we've disagreed politely and that makes a lovely change. I hope things work out well for you whatever the election result.

[Anna B]

Yes very welll reasoned post SgtKate but you ask to look past the individual and see the policies. How can you look past the individuals such as Abbott who espouses about state education and that "the few" can afford to send their kids to private education and she does exactly the same, she is a hypocrite. So the policies are not even worthy of their authors sticking to them.

 

Corbyn may well be a very nice man but I do not trust labour on Brexit and at this present time I believe the future prosperity of this country hinges on a decent deal.Corbyn has stated he will not walk away without a deal so the EU knowing this will offer him a bad deal knowing he will accept, this is a bad negotiating stance by anybody's view. If he gets in we will leave the EU in name only, still have immigration, ECJ, probably pay more money than now, just do not trust them to deliver.

 

Last but not least I have watched over the last few months th actions of the momentum members and find them disgusting and I equate them to the bullying despicable brownshirts , if you disagree with Corbyn or Labour they harangue and vilify you and that's before I even get on to the anti semitism. So no could never vote for the current Labour Party and pleased to say that Just had breakfast with four friends who were all labour voters and of those four there are three voting Tory and one voting UKIP. They live in my same MP area so that is five votes labour has lost, I am working on trying to get the UKIP voter to move to Tory.

 

Paragraph 1: I am no fan of D Abbott, but the Tories have done a fair share of its own U turns. Do you think that is not also hypocritical?

 

Para 2: Corbyn is a good negotiator and will come away with a deal. That doesn't mean he will roll over like a pussy cat by any means.

If Theresa May walks away without a deal, she will have actually got a deal by default whether she likes it or not, (There's a better name for this but brain not working today.) The EU will go on anyway and we will have to fit in with it to trade.

 

Para 3: I don't know any Momentum people. What have you 'watched over?' I think again it's a bit of a media invention to vilify anyone who supports Corbyn. Do you know any, or are you basing your remarks on what has been reported in a hostile and biased media? Serious question. Same with reporting on recent Leaders debate. It was reported as a hyper biased audience. Really? Ironic really as they were put together deliberately to reflect party balance.

[panzer1]

Agree with you sgtkate, I am not hostile to Labours beliefs just the current manifestation of the Labour Party.

 

Anna.

1. Corbyn and Abbott try to be the socialists , Corbyn may well believe what he espouses but has no real idea as he comes from a privileged background and is ensconced within the Islington bubble. Abbott is just a straight hypocrite sending her offspring to fee paying schools. The tories are what they are and I have already stated I am voting for them over Brexit as I trust them more than labour who will just roll over and accept what the EU give them, if I thought UKIP had a chance of forming a govt I would vote for them.

 

2. I refer you to the above.

 

3. I do not know want to or know any momentum members and yes I have watched them on tv media at meetings, press conferences etc. There was no one at these goading them to spew their vilenes as far as I could see, they just opened their mouths and let it flow to be captured on film. I watched X factor instead of the leaders debate which just goes to show how turned off it left me and the rest of the electorate, X factor 7.5 million viewers leaders debate 3.5 million viewers, says it all really.

 

I have in the past voted Labour when the MPs were ex steelworkers/miners/shipbuilders etc, when they knew what concerned myself ( one time steelworker) and other working people, now this lot are Tory light who want to play at being socialists where the state pays for everything, where if you sit on your arse and do nothing you get benefits ( yes seen it first hand from my in laws). They have no incentive to work and this lot will just give them more for nowt so will never vote for them, it's the one thing the tories have got right work should always pay more than benefits and at the moment it does not.

 

Next we can try NHS on food banks if you like, brother in law and sister in law , one works hallamshire and one at children's, they openly say load of crap. Propaganda from both sides, we vote on what matters and to me it's Brexit.