The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[Cyclone]

Or perhaps you are.

 

---------- Post added 06-08-2017 at 11:18 ----------

 

Reason enough.

 

No, not in the slightest.

 

---------- Post added 06-08-2017 at 11:20 ----------

 

So explain to me the logical sense in your position where you seek to reach a correct resolution by starting on a false premise: that there are no reasons to leave the EU.

There are clear and sound reasons to leave the EU: after 4000+ posts on the subject, we have identified the two I listed earlier.

You can accept that or you can argue against it, but you cannot ignore it and keep saying there are no reasons to leave.

 

There are insufficient reasons to leave the EU.

 

Some complaints about the EU is not the same as "Sufficient reason to leave".

[Hairyloon]

Or perhaps you are.

Usually best to quote the point to which you refer: that could mean anything.

 

There are insufficient reasons to leave the EU.

 

Some complaints about the EU is not the same as "Sufficient reason to leave".

 

I agree, but the argument is that those insufficient reasons do not exist: that argument is a clear folly.

[I1L2T3]

Then you are a fool.

 

I think that's very unfair.

 

There is a strong left-wing case for leaving (if you put yourself in that ideological mindset), just as there is a strong right-wing case (if you put yourself in that ideological mindset).

 

The problem word for both is 'ideological'. Neither pay enough respect to the economic consequences of leaving. And as I've said many times the economic argument will trump everything else. We're not quite there yet but soon enough we will be in realising the damage but when we do it'll be clear that neither ideology has any grounding in the real world.

 

The simplest and most effective way forward would have been staying in the EU and gradually detaching from the core. We were more or less doing that anyway, and Cameron actually negotiated a way forward.

[Cyclone]

Usually best to quote the point to which you refer: that could mean anything.

 

 

 

I agree, but the argument is that those insufficient reasons do not exist: that argument is a clear folly.

 

I suspect that people are simply not being clear with what they say.

 

When they mean "there is insufficient reason to leave the EU", what they instead say as shorthand is "there's no reason to leave the EU". "No reason" meaning "no sufficiently compelling reasons".

I suspect we all understand that, but we can play pedant of course and show that there are some reasons to consider leaving, even if they are insufficient and not compelling after consideration.

[Carlinate]

Then you are a fool.

 

Or alternatively someone who is far better informed than those people that have done serious damage to this country by making decisions based on nothing other than ill-informed prejudice.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwij19imtsLVAhUkAcAKHSYDC40QFghIMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmetro.co.uk%2F2016%2F10%2F16%2Fboris-johnsons-secret-column-for-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-6194705%2F&usg=AFQjCNGAgUWZuF61W36ceeT7Dxv8uUH_9w

 

---------- Post added 06-08-2017 at 11:54 ----------

 

Reason enough.

 

Tell us, how many times have you been divorced, and how many different jobs have you had?

 

Because if your reaction to everything not going exactly as you want it to is to run away without attempting to change things I imagine 'quite a lot' is the answer.

[I1L2T3]

I suspect that people are simply not being clear with what they say.

 

When they mean "there is insufficient reason to leave the EU", what they instead say as shorthand is "there's no reason to leave the EU". "No reason" meaning "no sufficiently compelling reasons".

I suspect we all understand that, but we can play pedant of course and show that there are some reasons to consider leaving, even if they are insufficient and not compelling after consideration.

 

That's it in a nutshell

 

The reasons - no matter who strongly leavers believe in them - are simply not strong enough to justify leaving.

 

Like you say nobody is arguing the EU is perfect.

[Hairyloon]

I think that's very unfair.

 

Why so?

If you see the post above yours, I have set out what I consider to be a clear folly; one who pursues a clear folly is a fool.

 

There is a strong left-wing case for leaving (if you put yourself in that ideological mindset), just as there is a strong right-wing case (if you put yourself in that ideological mindset).

 

Sorry, but I reject the concept of "left" and "right". If you consider the National Socialists who were at the same time both extreme right and extreme left, then you will see what a nonsense it is.

 

But that is a digression. The fact is that there are reasons to stay and there are reasons to leave.

The rational course is to give due consideration to all of those reasons and see where is the balance.

To claim that either set does not exist, is, as I said already, a simple folly.

 

The simplest and most effective way forward would have been staying in the EU and gradually detaching from the core. We were more or less doing that anyway, and Cameron actually negotiated a way forward.

I'm not convinced that Cameron negotiated anything, but that is by the by.

The electorate made the right call, aside from misjudging the spinelessness of parliament.

We should have used that vote as a lever to push for the reforms of EU that it needs to make: it is not just us that are not happy.

We could then have had another vote in five or ten years to see if those reforms were adequate, or if we do actually want to leave.

 

---------- Post added 06-08-2017 at 12:04 ----------

 

I suspect that people are simply not being clear with what they say.

 

When they mean "there is insufficient reason to leave the EU", what they instead say as shorthand is "there's no reason to leave the EU". "No reason" meaning "no sufficiently compelling reasons".

I suspect we all understand that, but we can play pedant of course and show that there are some reasons to consider leaving, even if they are insufficient and not compelling after consideration.

 

I would like to agree with you, but some here are arguing adamantly that that is not the case.

[retep]

Or alternatively someone who is far better informed than those people that have done serious damage to this country by making decisions based on nothing other than ill-informed prejudice.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwij19imtsLVAhUkAcAKHSYDC40QFghIMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmetro.co.uk%2F2016%2F10%2F16%2Fboris-johnsons-secret-column-for-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-6194705%2F&usg=AFQjCNGAgUWZuF61W36ceeT7Dxv8uUH_9w

 

---------- Post added 06-08-2017 at 11:54 ----------

 

 

Tell us, how many times have you been divorced, and how many different jobs have you had?

 

Because if your reaction to everything not going exactly as you want it to is to run away without attempting to change things I imagine 'quite a lot' is the answer.

 

Never.

 

Had plenty of different jobs because variety is the spice of life and gains experience, just like the UK after Brexit.

 

You carry on with your mundane life.

[Litotes]

You carry on with your mundane life.

 

For mundane read 'strong and stable'?

[Carlinate]

Why so?

If you see the post above yours, I have set out what I consider to be a clear folly; one who pursues a clear folly is a fool.

 

 

 

 

---------- Post added 06-08-2017 at 12:04 ----------

 

 

.

 

You don't appear to be on the same wavelength here.

 

A reason to leave would be one which overwhelmingly outweighed any reason to remain.

 

There isn't one, add together all the gripes that people had with the EU and they do not provide a reason for bringing about the economic damage and uncertainty which is taking place and which will continue for years to come.

 

Therefore there was no reason to leave.

 

Many Brexiteers seem under the illusion that we can break all connections and commitments to other countries and simply do as we please.

 

The world doesn't work like that, we will have to make new arrangements with everyone we trade with and we will be doing so from a position of weakness.

 

We are a relatively small economy on our own, we have a significant trade deficit and any future agreements will come with terms and conditions which may well be more onerous than those we currently have as members of the EU.

 

Brexit is a clear folly, so by your definition our pro Brexit politicians are all fools?

 

---------- Post added 06-08-2017 at 12:45 ----------

 

Never.

 

Had plenty of different jobs because variety is the spice of life and gains experience, just like the UK after Brexit.

 

You carry on with your mundane life.

 

People that make comments about others on the internet without knowing anything about them, other than their view on a particular topic come across as none too bright.

 

The experience that the UK is going to have after Brexit promises to be an extremely painful one.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Carlinate