The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[El Cid]

It does make you wonder, 2.37 million EU workers in the UK between April and June, 126,000 up on last years figures, and not enough to pick fruit and veg.

 

Does that include the nurses, that are coming here in far fewer numbers.

[retep]

So where do the workers to harvest the crops come from?

 

Have a think.

 

Crops unharvested:

http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/173684/growers-asked-to-write-to-mps-on-labour-crisis

 

Perhaps those lazy good for nothing Brits.

 

---------- Post added 13-11-2017 at 11:59 ----------

 

It can't have been the 'right' 126k ones that came over: more Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian fruit pickers chose to work in France this year.

 

The fact that the 15% to 20% drop in value of the £, hand-in-hand with the rising UK cost of living, made UK work uncompetitive (relative to € wages for the same work on the Continent) at the temp job/seasonal end of the UK job market this year, is very well-documented.

 

Just another predictable -and predicted- consequence of the referendum vote, and nothing untoward 'against' the UK in that, but just standard market forces/capitalistic competition at work, which transcend all sectors (agri, catering, medical, warehouse, <etc.>): the value differential goes a long way to explain both the growing reticence of EU workers to come work here, and the ongoing returns of EU workers back to the EU, far more so than any other, less objective factors.

 

If the UK hadn't tanked the £, you'd have had the same or more numbers of fruit & veg pickers as last year, no rotting crops, and less inflationary pressure on domestic agri products. Everything is connected logically like this: no crystal ball was harmed in writing this post (), anyone who understands the basics of a market economy and the elementary principle of communicating vessels (including its relevance to the price of imported agri products in the context of a devalued home currency, besides the earnings differential issue mentioned above, and other equilibrium factors) should see the above exactly for what it is. Causes and their logical consequences.

 

I don't see why any Brexiter would have any problem with that state of affairs, either. After all it's making reduced EU immigration at the no- to medium-skilled end of the jobs market a reality, and surely a few thousand tons' worth of rotting crops and slightly more expensive agri products, a few more months' worth of waiting time for an NHS op, <etc.> are all small prices to pay for 'regained control'?

 

Farmings going really well in France,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2822120/French-farmers-dump-hundreds-tonnes-manure-streets-spray-city-building-slurry-day-protest.html

 

I can see why they need the extra workers to pick up the dumped rotting veg.

[L00b]

Farmings going really well in France,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2822120/French-farmers-dump-hundreds-tonnes-manure-streets-spray-city-building-slurry-day-protest.html

 

I can see why they need the extra workers to pick up the dumped rotting veg.

Farming was doing alright in France in 2014, same as it has always mostly done.

 

But what's the relevance of that story, in your answer to my post about seasonal workers in the UK in 2017?

 

That's hardly convinced me that you can see all that well, tbh

Edited November 13, 2017 by L00b

[apelike]

It can't have been the 'right' 126k ones that came over: more Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian fruit pickers chose to work in France this year.

 

I think you will find that the increase of 400 workers in the report was for the years 2012-2015 and not this year, so pre-referendum.

[retep]

Farming was doing alright in France in 2014, same as it has always mostly done.

 

But what's the relevance of that story, in your answer to my post about seasonal workers in the UK in 2017?

 

That's hardly convinced me that you can see all that well, tbh

 

Not doing too well without the 70 million euro prop up extended to 2018 is it,

 

The seasonal workers Micron visited Romania about, complaining about social dumping.

[L00b]

I think you will find that the increase of 400 workers in the report was for the years 2012-2015 and not this year, so pre-referendum.

I think you will find that you are wrong. But then, you were probably relying on Google Translate, which can be pretty lax/approximate at times.

 

The article is dated of 29 August 2017 and relates that-

Du mois d'août au mois d'octobre, plus de 20 000 travailleurs saisonniers (ils sont entre 5 000 et 6 000 dans les autres départements) seront employés dans les vergers.Pour la pomme, la prune, la pêche, et l'abricot : de mai à juin pour l'éclaircissage ; de juillet à novembre pour la récolte et de novembre à décembre pour la taille.

= "From August to October, more than 20,000 seasonal workers (they number between 5000 and 6000 in other departments) will be employed in orchards. For apples, prunes, peaches and apricots: from May to June for thinning ; from July to November for picking, and from November to December for pruning".

 

Article is end August 2017, so that's August 2017 to October 2017, over a year after the referendum.

 

Le secteur de l'arboriculture est le plus gros employeur du département. «Une grande majorité des saisonniers qui ramassent les fruits sont des travailleurs étrangers ; les saisonniers locaux étant généralement employés au conditionnement des fruits. La grande majorité des saisonniers vient de Pologne (environ 3 000), mais on trouve aussi des Bulgares, des Roumains, des Espagnols et quelques Portugais. On est content de les avoir et eux sont contents de venir chez nous. Le salaire en Pologne est de 300 €, ici il est à 1 300 € net»

="Fruit cultivation is the largest employer in the department. «A large majority of seasonal workers who pick fruits are foreign workers ; local seasonal workers are generally employed for packaging fruits. A large majority of seasonal workers come from Poland (about 3000), but Bulgarians, Romanians, Spaniards and some Portuguese can also be found. We're happy to have them and they are happy to come here. The salary in Poland is 300 €, here it's 1 300 € net»".

 

That 400 increase between 2012 and 2015 is contextual information later in the article:

La majorité des contrats est de 31 à 120 jours en moyenne. Le nombre de contrats au mois d'août a augmenté de près de 400 entre 2012 et 2015(1).

= "The majority of the contracts is from 31 to 120 days. The number of contracts for August has increased by 400 between 2012 and 2015."

 

---------- Post added 13-11-2017 at 13:13 ----------

 

Not doing too well without the 70 million euro prop up extended to 2018 is it,

Any links? Not too sure what you're on about, there.

The seasonal workers Micron visited Romania about, complaining about social dumping.

Likewise, any links?

 

But links or not, this last point is just as relevant where the UK market for these jobs is concerned, so I'm none the wiser about what point you're trying to make, here

Edited November 13, 2017 by L00b

[retep]

I think you will find that you are wrong. But then, you were probably relying on Google Translate, which can be pretty lax/approximate at times.

 

The article is dated of 29 August 2017 and relates that-

= "From August to October, more than 20,000 seasonal workers (they number between 5000 and 6000 in other departments) will be employed in orchards. For apples, prunes, peaches and apricots: from May to June for thinning ; from July to November for picking, and from November to December for pruning".

 

Article is end August 2017, so that's August 2017 to October 2017, over a year after the referendum.

 

 

="Fruit cultivation is the largest employer in the department. «A large majority of seasonal workers who pick fruits are foreign workers ; local seasonal workers are generally employed for packaging fruits. A large majority of seasonal workers come from Poland (about 3000), but Bulgarians, Romanians, Spaniards and some Portuguese can also be found. We're happy to have them and they are happy to come here. The salary in Poland is 300 €, here it's 1 300 € net»".

 

That 400 increase between 2012 and 2015 is contextual information later in the article:

= "The majority of the contracts is from 31 to 120 days. The number of contracts for August has increased by 400 between 2012 and 2015."

 

---------- Post added 13-11-2017 at 13:13 ----------

 

Any links? Not too sure what you're on about, there.

Likewise, any links?

 

But links or not, this last point is just as relevant where the UK market for these jobs is concerned, so I'm none the wiser about what point you're trying to make, here

 

The 70 million to prop up the fruit and veg growers not much point in picking if they are going to turn produce into compost is there, shot themselves in the foot 2014, still paying for it till at least 2018.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1825_en.htm

Edited November 13, 2017 by retep

[L00b]

The 70 million to prop up the fruit and veg growers not much point in picking if they are going to turn produce into compost is there, shot themselves in the foot 2014, still paying for it till at least 2018.

 

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2017/07/04/EU-pledges-further-70-million-for-fruit-farmers-hit-by-Russia-ban

€70 whole millions, over 4 years and at the scale of the entire EU?

 

I mean, for a useful comparative context, and as you are a long-time EU detractor, I'm sure you're well aware of the EU's annual CAP multi-billions funding levels...right?

 

That issue you raised about European fruit growers, is not specifically about French ones, but any and all EU farmers exporting to Russia and affected by Russia's new protectionist measure at the time in 2014.

 

I was all ready to post about how this was actually a good measure by the EU, protecting European producers from foreign protectionist measures against them and, as an EU-wide measure, would apply to UK farmers just the same as to French, Italian, Spanish <etc.> farmers...

 

...but then, on a last-second Google check before posting just that, look what I found

 

Bit of a clear pattern by the UK government, there. After all, it's not as if they didn't do exactly the same thing with Port Talbot, when they refused to endorse the EU's temporary shielding of the EU steel industry against aggressive dumping by China. The message to UK makers-of-anything is crystal clear: you're on your own in the big wide world.

 

All the same, still no clearer on what any of that, has to do with UK farmers and their seasonal workers' supply requirements in 2017.

 

And no clearer either, about why you raised this new €70m fund in reply to my posts, since there's no indication whatsoever in the article which I linked earlier, that any of those French fruit farmers have ever exported anything to Russia, and so have ever gotten any portion of those €70m. But it's your argument, so by all means feel free to do your own research.

Edited November 13, 2017 by L00b

[mafya]

Does that include the nurses, that are coming here in far fewer numbers.

 

Maybe it will give the Govt a kick to start investing in training our own nurses like it used to be once upon a time.

[retep]

€70 whole millions, over 4 years and at the scale of the entire EU?

 

I mean, for a useful comparative context, and as you are a long-time EU detractor, I'm sure you're well aware of the EU's annual CAP multi-billions funding levels...right?

 

That issue you raised about European fruit growers, is not specifically about French ones, but any and all EU farmers exporting to Russia and affected by Russia's new protectionist measure at the time in 2014.

 

I was all ready to post about how this was actually a good measure by the EU, protecting European producers from foreign protectionist measures against them and, as an EU-wide measure, would apply to UK farmers just the same as to French, Italian, Spanish <etc.> farmers...

 

...but then, on a last-second Google check before posting just that, look what I found

 

Still no clearer on what any of that, has to do with UK farmers and their seasonal workers' supply requirements in 2017.

 

And no clearer either, about why you raised this new €70m fund in reply to my posts, since there's no indication whatsoever in the article which I linked earlier, that any of those French fruit farmers have ever exported anything to Russia, and so have ever gotten any portion of those €70m. But it's your argument, so by all means feel free to do your own research.

 

I think you will find the 70 million is further support for the next year, and your link explains why UK crops are rotting in the fields, and if those french fruit growers have never exported to Russia why were they protesting in the streets, your argument becomes thinner by the post.