The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[Car Boot]

The cause of our problems hasn't been Brussels but Westminster Tories, and it is Tories who have shafted us, not those Europeans you despise so much.

 

The cause of our problems has been Brussels AND Westminster.

 

Not only do we have austerity fanatics in Downing Street, but we have their doubles and puppet masters in Brussels. The EU is fanatical about enforcing austerity and privatisation on its member states.

 

In what alternate reality is the EU a progressive, democratic institution that cares about it's citizens?

[retep]

You're now 'free' from your elected representatives in Brussels, and instead in the control of your elected representatives in Westminster. Who in reality were always in control.

Well done. Freedom. Sovrinty. Stupid argument. Swallowed the lies.

They can be got rid of next election, and a lot easier than the EU it seems.

[Cyclone]

The argument as to referendum voting according to age is well put, but omits one factor.

 

People change their minds over time, in the light of experience.

I'd be fascinated to see if this is actually the case.

Have people who moved from 18 - 24 to 25-49 (why not equal sized groups anyway), become less likely to wish to remain.

Obviously that takes a few years to be studiable though, as you need enough people to age up to get a statistically significant result.

I suspect at the moment though, given the huge polarisation that has occurred, and the pain that brexit is already causing, that people won't change their mind.

 

Yes, the young might have voted Remain, just like my generation (I am 75 today, writing this after a celebratory cuppa) did in 1972. Then voting to join the European Economic Community - the EEC - was an easy choice. It was a good idea. However, over the last 45 years we have seen the EEC metamorphose into the EU, an entirely continental construct based on an ever expanding bureaucratic model. This now impacts on every aspect of our lives, resulting in two governments, etc.

 

So, based on this experience, the young who voted "join" in 1972, are now the old who voted "leave" in 2016.

 

I ask - if the result had been Remain - how might those in favour feel in a few years time. Would they be regretting their decision?

The great thing about voting remain was that you could easily change that in the future, if sufficient of the population agreed. You could hold a referendum every 5 years if you liked.

You can't change your mind on leaving though, once you've left you ain't getting back in easily, and most definitely not with all the special caveats we have.

A 'leave' victory should have been specified from the start as a supra majority, something like 66% at least.

 

( And on an allied issue: some are arguing that the Leave victory is because of ignorance from Norman from Newcastle, or Doris from Dewsbury. But remember that they didn't ask for a referendum, this was a bright idea from Tristram and Rupert in a policy think tank somewhere in the Westminster bubble. It's the old adage - if you don't want the wrong answer - don't ask the question..............)

 

The fact that this was started by Tory (Cameron) arrogance doesn't alter the fact that it's a disaster for the country our economy and our population.

 

---------- Post added 01-12-2017 at 09:51 ----------

 

They can be got rid of next election, and a lot easier than the EU it seems.

 

You get to vote for a new MEP in exactly the same way

 

---------- Post added 01-12-2017 at 09:54 ----------

 

The cause of our problems has been Brussels AND Westminster.

 

Not only do we have austerity fanatics in Downing Street, but we have their doubles and puppet masters in Brussels. The EU is fanatical about enforcing austerity and privatisation on its member states.

 

In what alternate reality is the EU a progressive, democratic institution that cares about it's citizens?

 

The EU has no policy on austerity, and I think we might be one of the last countries left (us and Greece maybe) following an austerity policy.

The EU does have a mutually agreed rule (mutually meaning that we helped to create this rule)

EU member states may not have a budget deficit that exceeds three percent of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) or a national debt that exceeds of sixty percent of the GDP.

The EU isn't something that exists without its members. It's created, run by, owned by, exists through, the member states. If it doesn't care about it's citizens, then look closer to home for where that lack of care comes from.

[retep]

I'd be fascinated to see if this is actually the case.

Have people who moved from 18 - 24 to 25-49 (why not equal sized groups anyway), become less likely to wish to remain.

Obviously that takes a few years to be studiable though, as you need enough people to age up to get a statistically significant result.

I suspect at the moment though, given the huge polarisation that has occurred, and the pain that brexit is already causing, that people won't change their mind.

The great thing about voting remain was that you could easily change that in the future, if sufficient of the population agreed. You could hold a referendum every 5 years if you liked.

You can't change your mind on leaving though, once you've left you ain't getting back in easily, and most definitely not with all the special caveats we have.

A 'leave' victory should have been specified from the start as a supra majority, something like 66% at least.

 

The fact that this was started by Tory (Cameron) arrogance doesn't alter the fact that it's a disaster for the country our economy and our population.

 

---------- Post added 01-12-2017 at 09:51 ----------

 

 

You get to vote for a new MEP in exactly the same way

 

Why have two layers of Bureaucracy when one will do.

[melthebell]

Why have two layers of Bureaucracy when one will do.

why wear a jumper under yer coat?

[pss60]

The cause of our problems has been Brussels AND Westminster.

 

Not only do we have austerity fanatics in Downing Street, but we have their doubles and puppet masters in Brussels. The EU is fanatical about enforcing austerity and privatisation on its member states.

 

In what alternate reality is the EU a progressive, democratic institution that cares about it's citizens?

We'll have a lot more austerity to pay the £100 billion plus bill. Europe has been scapegoated to hide the sins of Westminster. There will be no £350 million a week extra for the NHS, as many believed, just because it was painted on the side of a bus, or just because the xenophobic Sun, Daily Mail and Daily Express said so. Nobody believed this like the pensioner population, who not only have a greater tendency to dislike foreigners, but also are more likely to get taken in by conmen and wide boys. They thought Farage was a 'man of the people' just because he popped into a pub and drank a pint before the cameras - no different from what millions of others do - but they don't do it before the cameras or get described as men of the people. And the EU hasn't forced austerity on us - Westminster has done that. They didn't stop Midland Mainline electrification - Grayling did that. They didn't turn Britain into the closest we've been to a police state - Thatcher did that. A £100 billion Brexit bill, the withdrawal of EU funding for areas like South Yorkshire, companies pulling out or abandoning plans to set up here, loss of markets - all that and more will be laid at the door of Brexiteers, who clearly think somebody else should foot that massive bill - namely the young and those who still have 10 or more years left of their working lives.

 

---------- Post added 01-12-2017 at 10:46 ----------

 

That pent up anger will make your eyes pop out.

I suppose you're happy with us getting poorer over the next 10 years, just so long as you can have a pop at those hated foreigners.

 

---------- Post added 01-12-2017 at 10:54 ----------

 

Perhaps it shows you get more sensible with age,

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/

 

Seems the younger you are the more foolish.

 

If you get more sensible with age, then why do conmen largely target pensioners and not 20- or 30-somethings.

Edited December 1, 2017 by pss60

[Car Boot]

Of course the Brexiteers showed scant respect for the referendum of 1975.

 

The people who voted to Leave the EU in the 1975 referendum certainly respected the outcome. They went on with their lives, paying into the system, and didn't demand another vote because the first one had given a Remain result.

 

These quiet, hard working people waited patiently until they got a another vote, 41 years later, to confirm their opposition to the EU's bloated bureaucracy, its 'parliament' that represents many nations but has no democratic legitimacy. And to show support and solidarity with the countries on the periphery of the EU that have been forced into poverty and austerity.

 

The losing Leave vote of 1975 puts to shame the current Remainers who lost the 2016 vote and have never stopped whinging and moaning about it. The 1975 losers were of a different generation, they accepted the outcome and just got on with it.

[whiteowl]

The 1975 losers were of a different generation, they accepted the outcome and just got on with it.

 

So why did we have another referendum in 2016 if they accepted it ?

[ENG601PM]

The great thing about voting remain was that you could easily change that in the future, if sufficient of the population agreed. You could hold a referendum every 5 years if you liked.

 

I see. But then you say;

victory should have been specified from the start as a supra majority, something like 66% at least.

 

Because fair is fair, and under your minimum 66% majority it must apply whether voting to remain every 5 years, or to leave every 40.

 

If the EU is doing so well the 5 year majority will be a walkover don't you think. Or maybe we'd be looking at a very different EU now if the institution was kept on its toes like that, and maybe at least 66% would have voted to remain in 2016. But it wasn't and we didn't, and we're leaving.

[El Cid]

Why have two layers of Bureaucracy when one will do.

 

We have numerous layers of Government.

 

We need a international body to set international rules, we also need local councils that know what is going on in their own area. We also, in some areas, have parish councils, also regional councils; those that think things are simple, need to look at the bigger picture.