Carlinate Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 No we dont, we trade individually with the member states and they trade individually with us, the EU does not mediate in any of that. We couldn't before, remember what you said "we negotiate with the EU as a single entity." No, we are negotiating with the European Council mainly and any agreement has to pass by a qualified majority vote, so not necessarily full agreement of all 27. True but there are parallels to the many Empires that have come and gone throughout history. The modern EU has expanded from its original 6 in 1957 to the 28 members now so is a new product. The fall of communism in 1989 helped expand it and so did the inclusion of 12 new members since 2004. Half the EU nations therefore are relatively new members so the EU could not have been directly responsible for that 72 years of peaceful times. The fact is its NATO that has held that peace and nothing to do with the EU. No we don't trade individually, we trade with separate countries under the agreements put in place by the EU. Your second paragraph confirms that point and contradicts your first comment. We are negotiating with the European council and deciding upon a deal by majority of that council in order to move the process along and not have to get 27 agreements for every point. However. once that agreement has been arrived at it then needs the assent of all 27 members. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj4xvPG4uzUAhUoCcAKHQpVCmIQFghoMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fopeneurope.org.uk%2Ftoday%2Fblog%2Fthe-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50%2F&usg=AFQjCNGk1LzMZ78TNh9endIO3CkbndlLyg Paragraph immediately above the heading ' Advantages and drawbacks of Article 50 '. The EU is not an Empire, if it was we wouldn't be leaving without a war. Therefore parallels are not applicable. I didn't say that it was the only reason for peace in Europe I said that it was one of the main ones and I believe it was. The original members of the Common Market included France, West Germany, Italy, Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg. The first five of those had Empires, and together with our good selves were among the leading acquisitive trouble makers and warmongerers in the European continent. Being part of a group intent upon mutual gain reined in the tendency to take by force what you could have by negotiated agreement. NATO played its part also and you'll note that all of the founder members of the EEC are also members of NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 The EU is not an Empire, if it was we wouldn't be leaving without a war. Therefore parallels are not applicable. There are similarities to an Empire, whether the parallels are applicable depends upon what the parallels are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 There are similarities to an Empire, whether the parallels are applicable depends upon what the parallels are...Are there? empire /ˈɛmpʌɪə/ noun noun: empire; plural noun: empires 1. an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state. "the Roman Empire", "the Ottoman Empire" supreme political power over several countries when exercised by a single authority. "he encouraged the Greeks in their dream of empire in Asia Minor" 2. an extensive sphere of activity controlled by one person or group. "the kitchen had once been the school dinner ladies' empire" a large commercial organization owned or controlled by one person or group. "her business empire grew" I daresay, not if you know what the EU actually is, and how it actually works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlinate Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 (edited) I am not convinced about that: we had the War to End All Wars, remember? I think the memory of that has had a significant influence in our desire to not repeat it. Plus we have much, much better communications, both between the separate nations, and to the Public at Large: could WW1 have happened if we'd had television reporting on the relevant issues? I think probably not. ---------- Post added 03-07-2017 at 09:26 ---------- [/color The 'War to end all Wars' was WW1 in which my uncle served, his much younger brother, my father, then served in WW2 so that went well. We have been fighting wars continually since that time, but not in the part of Europe which has joined together in a mutual trade organization. As for greater communications helping to prevent such stupidity, I wish it was so but unfortunately Einstein was right about the only things that are infinite are the universe and mans capacity for stupidity. And if you need proof of that. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjXk5326ezUAhUHLsAKHXvsAMEQFghDMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2017%2F01%2F29%2Fus-china-war-increasingly-a-reality-chinese-army-official-says.html&usg=AFQjCNGJ2Elb67TrqJr1_FVlElleJj5r5A Old Albert knew what he was on about. ---------- Post added 03-07-2017 at 11:39 ---------- There are similarities to an Empire, whether the parallels are applicable depends upon what the parallels are... There are also similarities to this arrangement; https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiY45vn8-zUAhXoAcAKHaQlBAYQFgg8MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slate.com%2Farticles%2Fbriefing%2Farticles%2F2000%2F07%2Fdoes_groupshopping_work.html&usg=AFQjCNFUQsPHE4nIxM_kp7hhTjLQdH0bdQ Although they are just as tenuous as those between an Empire and the EU. Allowing input to decisions and veto's when those decisions are not to a particular countries liking ( Euro, Schengen ) are the very opposite of how Empires treat those under their control. Edited July 3, 2017 by Carlinate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotholly Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 UK status will diminish as a result of Brexit, pound already devalued by 20%, if Scotland leaves it's all over for UK as world power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanic99 Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Just wondering if anyone has read anywhere about how many more Immigration Officers we will need. My eldest lad is looking for a career change and this would seem to have plenty of longevity in it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Just wondering if anyone has read anywhere about how many more Immigration Officers we will need. My eldest lad is looking for a career change and this would seem to have plenty of longevity in it now. Im sure Mrs May can give that money tree and really good shake and magic up a few quid from somewhere. More realistically, theyll be cut back and the same amount of staff (or more likely less) will be doing much more, less successfully (see the NHS etc etc for proof if it were needed). How is he at picking fruit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Im sure Mrs May can give that money tree and really good shake and magic up a few quid from somewhere.According to the latest news, that's a resounding no from Theresa, use of the magic taxpayers' money tree is still exclusively reserved for the DUP. Tory civil warfare going public -and party implosion- in 3, 2, 1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 The 'War to end all Wars' was WW1 in which my uncle served, his much younger brother, my father, then served in WW2 so that went well. Yes, but prior to that, we would go to war over almost anything, just to give the troops an airing, nowadays we only go to war over important things, like oil or drugs... And it just occurred to me that WW2 was about regime change: that would not be allowed now. As for greater communications helping to prevent such stupidity, I wish it was so but unfortunately Einstein was right about the only things that are infinite are the universe and mans capacity for stupidity. And if you need proof of that. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjXk5326ezUAhUHLsAKHXvsAMEQFghDMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2017%2F01%2F29%2Fus-china-war-increasingly-a-reality-chinese-army-official-says.html&usg=AFQjCNGJ2Elb67TrqJr1_FVlElleJj5r5A Ah, I was talking about actual communications: Twitter, the means of expression favoured by the Trump is not properly communicating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 I am not convinced about that: we had the War to End All Wars, remember? I think the memory of that has had a significant influence in our desire to not repeat it. Plus we have much, much better communications, both between the separate nations, and to the Public at Large: could WW1 have happened if we'd had television reporting on the relevant issues? I think probably not. I don't think this can be true - just look at the scale of war in Syria currently, and yet its all reported in great detail in the MSM, youtube etc. Doesn't seem to stop people being willing or being forced to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts