The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[nikki-red]

The personal comments and digs can stop here.

 

 

Thank you.

[I1L2T3]

or from europe

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2017 at 01:13 ----------

 

 

now that a two-way statement, where do you get your thoughts?

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2017 at 01:19 ----------

 

 

you seem to be dithering say what you mean, you seem to be saying we be supporting the government and the will of the people or what? Maybe we should be like Ireland and bullied into more votes till we get it right to the dog whistles ways. Or should we just be BRITISH. Which are you?

 

I’m not dithering. I want a soft Brexit. Until it is s clear the government is committed to that as well then I can’t support it. I didn’t vote Tory at the GE so it is my democratic right to continue to be opposed to them. Remember that May made the GE about her authority over Brexit.

[Cyclone]

Even if you did vote tory, it's still your absolute right to disagree with a specific policy and to say so publicly and loudly.

Anyone who claims that it's undemocratic to disagree with something after a tiny majority win in a non binding referendum really doesn't understand democracy.

[tzijlstra]

So, another day in the saga.

 

Last night the Brexit bill as proposed by David Davis was defeated, essentially because parliament does not want to take his word on how much influence MPs will have on the final withdrawal bill.

 

This means that Davis and May will have to table a statute rather than a resolution - in other words MPs will be able to table amendments and alter the final bill in discussion with the MPs. But this means May and Davis need to agree to do so and offer that to Parliament, in other words, this bill is going to come back for debate quite soon.

 

Consequence - The UK is going into the EU Council summit in a weird position, but the EU will probably not care either way - it is up to May and Davis to bring parliament on board.

Consequence - The cabinet will have to enter discussion with MPs more than they thought they would have to. Democratic process and diligence is finally guaranteed, provided Davis can get this bill through in an amended version. If he can't, then... well Brexit might not happen, which is not an option for this cabinet. So -

Consequence - May's position might become untenable as a result

[I1L2T3]

So, another day in the saga.

 

Last night the Brexit bill as proposed by David Davis was defeated, essentially because parliament does not want to take his word on how much influence MPs will have on the final withdrawal bill.

 

This means that Davis and May will have to table a statute rather than a resolution - in other words MPs will be able to table amendments and alter the final bill in discussion with the MPs. But this means May and Davis need to agree to do so and offer that to Parliament, in other words, this bill is going to come back for debate quite soon.

 

Consequence - The UK is going into the EU Council summit in a weird position, but the EU will probably not care either way - it is up to May and Davis to bring parliament on board.

Consequence - The cabinet will have to enter discussion with MPs more than they thought they would have to. Democratic process and diligence is finally guaranteed, provided Davis can get this bill through in an amended version. If he can't, then... well Brexit might not happen, which is not an option for this cabinet. So -

Consequence - May's position might become untenable as a result

 

The 27 states have a whiff of blood for sure. Even the most blind of Brexiters surely can’t fail to see it is the 27 states and the 48% (plus newer converts) who are shaping this now.

[chalga]

It was Lord Rose, the head of the 'Britain Stronger in Europe' campaign, who stated during an appearance before the House of Commons Treasury select committee that the wages of low skilled workers would rise in the event of a vote to Leave the EU.

 

Wes Streeting MP (Labour) asked Lord Rose if restrictions on the free movement of EU migrants after a Brexit vote "could see an increase in wages for low-skilled workers in the UK”? Lord Rose replied: “If you are short of labour the price will, frankly, go up. So yes. That’s not necessarily a good thing.”

 

Membership of the EU means big business can pay lower wages to the poorest workers.

 

A vote to Leave was a vote to give the poor a pay rise.

 

This will be good for the UK,farming,food processing,supermarkets and all the supply chains involved that traditionally employ these low waged workers are now going to have to increase pay for those workers after low skilled migrants from the EU are banned, while at the same time delivering the lower food prices that Brexiters have also promised........I will be looking for my cheaper popcorn to munch while I watch exactly how that particular circle is squared.

[andyofborg]

So, another day in the saga.

 

Last night the Brexit bill as proposed by David Davis was defeated, essentially because parliament does not want to take his word on how much influence MPs will have on the final withdrawal bill.

 

This means that Davis and May will have to table a statute rather than a resolution - in other words MPs will be able to table amendments and alter the final bill in discussion with the MPs. But this means May and Davis need to agree to do so and offer that to Parliament, in other words, this bill is going to come back for debate quite soon.

 

Consequence - The UK is going into the EU Council summit in a weird position, but the EU will probably not care either way - it is up to May and Davis to bring parliament on board.

Consequence - The cabinet will have to enter discussion with MPs more than they thought they would have to. Democratic process and diligence is finally guaranteed, provided Davis can get this bill through in an amended version. If he can't, then... well Brexit might not happen, which is not an option for this cabinet. So -

Consequence - May's position might become untenable as a result

 

 

i think you may be getting a bit overexcited about this.

 

This is only the second reading of the Bill, the Government may try and undo this at the final reading or possibly (and unlikely) when it reaches the House of Lords.

 

A large part of our current problems are because the Cabinet seems not to have had a proper discussion about what we want to achieve. This has allowed all the competing views to have air time which has not really done much to heal the splits in either the party or the country.

 

I can understand that she did this to hold the party together as much as possible. I think also as a consequence people are far more aware of the consequences of each option than they were at the referendum which is probably a good thing. Whether this was an intended consequence or not is open to question.

 

May's position has been untenable since the General Election. She only remains because the possible alternative leaders don't want and aren't capable of dealing with this mess and more importantly they dont think they would win or even gain a majority in a General Election.

[I1L2T3]

This will be good for the UK,farming,food processing,supermarkets and all the supply chains involved that traditionally employ these low waged workers are now going to have to increase pay for those workers after low skilled migrants from the EU are banned, while at the same time delivering the lower food prices that Brexiters have also promised........I will be looking for my cheaper popcorn to munch while I watch exactly how that particular circle is squared.

 

It’s all predicated on the idea that businesses will use U.K. labour to supply their previous needs for EU labour.

 

Nobody can seriously believe that would happen. Businesses will be screaming over costs. Consumers up in arms over shortages, high prices and poor quality imports.

 

At the end of it all the replacement workers will need to be brought in. From the EU or further afield. And does anybody seriously believe businesses are not going to lobby to get their wages as low as possible? That they would be happy to pay unskilled south East Asian workers more than they previously paid EU workers?

 

As always it’s the economics of it all that will trump everything.

[Lockdoctor]

The democratic people?

 

So you support every electoral result. So if you voted Labour and the Tories won you would unthinkingly 100% support the Tories.

 

Your argument doesn’t make any sense

 

Yes, I support every democratic result delivered by the people in this country, because I believe the results to be fair. A referendum result is about one issue while a General Election result is decided by many issues. If a party win a General Election then I hope they Govern our country well and also hope policies I didn't agree with are successful.

 

During a parliament opposing parties should either support the elected Government regarding policies, if they genuinely believe them to be good

or oppose them, if they genuinely believe the policies are bad. However, regarding the decision to leave the EU, which was made by the democratic people, no party or any MPs should sabotage any legislation necessary for the Government to carry out the democratic wishes of the people, which is to fully leave the EU.

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2017 at 09:20 ----------

 

maybe they know the will of the democratic people is complete stupidity and will kill our country?

Nobody knows if the UK will be better or worse off, but we all know the democratic people did vote to leave the EU and that decision should be respected by all MPs and carried out.

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2017 at 09:22 ----------

 

 

Your statement willfully neglects the truth of Lockdoctor's post.

 

Which is simply that Lockdoctor respects the outcome of the vote, although it may not be the choice that Lockdoctor voted for. To make the best of that choice Lockdoctor supports the Brexit process.

 

In my humble opinion, Lockdoctor is a true democrat.

Well said.

[Cyclone]

We all quite clearly know that the UK will not be better off. If you can't see that already then you're living in a fantasy land.

Can you stop talking about "the democratic people", it sounds ridiculous. The people aren't democratic, the process is democratic. The people are just the people.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Cyclone