I1L2T3 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) Dear oh dear, I have not suggested or argued any of those points. I have quite clearly set out that the demise of the UK coal and steel industries has its roots in the European Coal and Steel Community which was set up to protect French and German business interests, which ultimately became the EU with the same essential principles - the protection of French and German business interests. The Tories reaction to union power overreach in the 70's was merely the final minute of the ten to midnight fireworks that people remember, not the build up to the drama. Those self same German and French business interests are not in the business of self immolation after seven decades of hegemony. Have a think about it. Finally, please don't fall into the trap that others do here. I do not 'seem' to suggest anything. If I mean it, I say it, and I am happy to defend it or change my mind in the face of better facts or arguments, and you are very welcome to try. Visit the northern French coalfield. Then come back and tell us what is left. The economics of the global coal industry are well understood, and not even your big bad EU stood in the way of coal imports (from Australia for example) costing one quarter of what it cost to mine coal in the French deep mines. Edited February 25, 2018 by I1L2T3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fogey Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Dear oh dear, I have not suggested or argued any of those points. I have quite clearly set out that the demise of the UK coal and steel industries has its roots in the European Coal and Steel Community which was set up to protect French and German business interests, which ultimately became the EU with the same essential principles - the protection of French and German business interests. The Tories reaction to union power overreach in the 70's was merely the final minute of the ten to midnight fireworks that people remember, not the build up to the drama. Those self same German and French business interests are not in the business of self immolation after seven decades of hegemony. Have a think about it. Finally, please don't fall into the trap that others do here. I do not 'seem' to suggest anything. If I mean it, I say it, and I am happy to defend it or change my mind in the face of better facts or arguments, and you are very welcome to try. You seem to suggest quite a lot but I have spent several days of posts trying to get you to say what you actually mean. Its nice that you have finally admitted that it was in fact the British Government that destroyed the UK Coal and Steel industry despite spending many posts squirming to avoid doing so. But whats your opinion of my belief of what the consequences of Brexit will be? That poor people will be worse off, particularly under a British Conservative Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 The reasons that poorer areas of the country voted overwhelmingly for Brexit has not been addressed by any party. Not even by UKIP, and certainly not by Farage since he ceased to be leader. They are voting for change, and that desire is still there as we saw in the GE with some shock results in less affluent areas. None of the main parties have anything on the table that even remotely addresses this. As Fogey says the Tories will not invest in and improve areas they have already spent decades neglecting, and with none of neglect the fault of the EU. To think they will do anything positive for those areas is wishful thinking. Likewise the Labour Party has nothing. No coherent post-Brexit business, industrial and infrastructure strategy that does anything for less affluent areas. This IMO is going to seriously undo both main parties unless they get their act together. Sadly, all of the battles are being fough in the offices and corridors of Westminster and London party HQs with no reference to the rest of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalga Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 The reasons that poorer areas of the country voted overwhelmingly for Brexit has not been addressed by any party. Not even by UKIP, and certainly not by Farage since he ceased to be leader. They are voting for change, and that desire is still there as we saw in the GE with some shock results in less affluent areas. None of the main parties have anything on the table that even remotely addresses this. As Fogey says the Tories will not invest in and improve areas they have already spent decades neglecting, and with none of neglect the fault of the EU. To think they will do anything positive for those areas is wishful thinking. Likewise the Labour Party has nothing. No coherent post-Brexit business, industrial and infrastructure strategy that does anything for less affluent areas. This IMO is going to seriously undo both main parties unless they get their act together. Sadly, all of the battles are being fough in the offices and corridors of Westminster and London party HQs with no reference to the rest of the country. They are still going to have to come up with new and successful fishing and agricultural policies in future,let alone come up with policies that share the wealth of London with the poor areas of the UK,given the horlicks over Brexit,what job are they going to make of all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 They are still going to have to come up with new and successful fishing and agricultural policies in future,let alone come up with policies that share the wealth of London with the poor areas of the UK,given the horlicks over Brexit,what job are they going to make of all that? Leave it to the right of the Tory party and their dogmatic response would be to let the markets sort it out. Leave it to the left of the Labour Party and we’re in for extensive and non evidence based dogmatic re-nationalisation. Thankfully neither are going to completely get their way. There seems to be a centrist consensus forming now around the economic details of the arrangement moving forward, and that is focused on the mechanics of a CU and SM access. But that does nothing to address the desire for change in less affluent areas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 The reasons that poorer areas of the country voted overwhelmingly for Brexit has not been addressed by any party. Not even by UKIP, and certainly not by Farage since he ceased to be leader. They are voting for change, and that desire is still there as we saw in the GE with some shock results in less affluent areas. None of the main parties have anything on the table that even remotely addresses this. As Fogey says the Tories will not invest in and improve areas they have already spent decades neglecting, and with none of neglect the fault of the EU. To think they will do anything positive for those areas is wishful thinking. Likewise the Labour Party has nothing. No coherent post-Brexit business, industrial and infrastructure strategy that does anything for less affluent areas. This IMO is going to seriously undo both main parties unless they get their act together. Sadly, all of the battles are being fough in the offices and corridors of Westminster and London party HQs with no reference to the rest of the country. As well as working class people that are having to compete for housing, school places, and the trades such as plumbers that are being undercut by cheaper eastern Europeans, the more middle class types such as doctors, nurses and college lecturers and so on, are finding they are under pressure too from EU nationals(and from further afield) taking their jobs. I bet more of them voted for Brexit than care to admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalga Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) As well as working class people that are having to compete for housing, school places, and the trades such as plumbers that are being undercut by cheaper eastern Europeans, the more middle class types such as doctors, nurses and college lecturers and so on, are finding they are under pressure too from EU nationals(and from further afield) taking their jobs. I bet more of them voted for Brexit than care to admit. The EU doesn't stop the UK from training and employing its own nurses,doctors,teachers,there's nothing stopping UK nationals from working in fields,food processing factories,care homes,logistics,hotels,bars and restaurants. If there are Eastern Europeans taking their places,it means UK companies are fuelling that demand. There's nothing stopping the UK from building more houses and schools as it knows their industries are attracting more migrants to keep up with the demand,if you don't have enough cups to go round,don't keep inviting people round for tea and then complaining that there are too many guests and not enough cups. Edited February 25, 2018 by chalga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 As well as working class people that are having to compete for housing, school places, and the trades such as plumbers that are being undercut by cheaper eastern Europeans, the more middle class types such as doctors, nurses and college lecturers and so on, are finding they are under pressure too from EU nationals(and from further afield) taking their jobs. I bet more of them voted for Brexit than care to admit. Although the headlines are immigration-related it’s not all totally about immigration though is it? Less affluent areas (of which Sheffield and surrounds has its fair share) were never in a bad way in previous decades just because of the EU. It was more to do with decades of unmanaged industrial decline and economic readjustment. That is solely the responsibility of successive U.K. governments. The EU never forced the U.K. to neglect those areas. There is evidence that the mass immigration from the EU since 2005 is a factor in tipping sentiment in less affluent areas towards Brexit. But make no mistake, EU immigration is just a lightning rod for all the issues those areas face. Even if the numbers are reduced the same underlying structural economic issues in poor areas will still be there. As I said nothing that any of the main parties are doing remotely addresses that. People voted for change but they won’t get the change they want. In fact some of the change could be highly unpalatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 As well as working class people that are having to compete for housing, school places, and the trades such as plumbers that are being undercut by cheaper eastern Europeans, the more middle class types such as doctors, nurses and college lecturers and so on, are finding they are under pressure too from EU nationals(and from further afield) taking their jobs. I bet more of them voted for Brexit than care to admit. There's a shortage of medical staff, can't see there being a problem for British staff getting a job...one of my friends is on an NHS clinical commissioning group and she says that job vacancies in some areas are running at 40%.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENG601PM Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 There's a shortage of medical staff, can't see there being a problem for British staff getting a job...one of my friends is on an NHS clinical commissioning group and she says that job vacancies in some areas are running at 40%.... Perhaps some sort of budget crackdown on agency workers is in order then? ---------- Post added 26-02-2018 at 09:00 ---------- Labour's magical thinking will be out today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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