I1L2T3 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Here are some "Facts"* that summarise why it might be a good idea to leave the EU. *facts is a subjective term, used loosely on both sides of the argument! 1. We sell more to the rest of the world than the EU. We are penalised by the EU external tariff. The EU can't seem to manage to get a trade deal with USA, China, Australia, India etc. Add to this that it looks likely that we will strike a quick trade deal with the US and already our global outlook is looking good. 2. We will have the ability to choose our own immigration policy which affects around half of immigrants into the country. 3. The five presidents report sets out closer and closer integration - the leaders in Europe want close integration of welfare systems, armed forces and increased political union. Perhaps brexiteers don't want that and want to retain more decision making in our own country. 4. When Britain joined in 1973, the states that now make up the EU accounted for 36 per cent of the world economy. Last year, it was 17 per cent. Obviously, developing economies grow faster than advanced ones, but the EU has also been comprehensively outperformed by the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Why tie ourselves to the worlds slowest growing continent? https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/six-best-reasons-brexit-best/ 1. We sell more to the rest of the world than the EU while we are in the EU. So how is the EU stopping us from selling to the rest of the world? And if it is then why are the Germans, for example, such successful exporters to the rest of the world and why do they not feel constrained by the EU? We don't know the terms of any trade deals that might happen but it's naive in the extreme to assume they will be completely to our benefit. 2. So we can already control half our immigration but persist in refusing to do so, and you say around half when you know that more than half of our net gain is non-EU. 3. You know we can opt out from ever closer integration. Cameron secured that agreement. 4. In terms of economic growth the UK has flourished while in the EU. You may find this hard to comprehend but we are one of the winners from it with decent growth and low unemployment. Anyway, as I said in previous posts the game is up. People are starting to comprehend the economic pain your fantasies require, and that pain is starting to be felt by a lot of people. Time to back down from this ridiculous plan before too much damage is done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1. We sell more to the rest of the world than the EU. We are penalised by the EU external tariff. How are we penalised? The EU can't seem to manage to get a trade deal with USA, China, Australia, India etc. Add to this that it looks likely that we will strike a quick trade deal with the US and already our global outlook is looking good. It is not that the EU can't get a deal, it is that they are holding out for a good deal. TTIP for example is taking so long to negotiate because America is looking to screw us. On our own, we don't have the weight to carry through the terms we might want, and we won't have the time to hold out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 How are we penalised? It is not that the EU can't get a deal, it is that they are holding out for a good deal. TTIP for example is taking so long to negotiate because America is looking to screw us. On our own, we don't have the weight to carry through the terms we might want, and we won't have the time to hold out. To add to that trade negotiations usually involve discussions around movement of people. Maybe not the USA but certainly China and India would look for massive concessions from the UK in that respect. Both for example produce way more graduates than they have roles for. I'd expect the terms to be punative. We'd probably have to accept high volumes of immigrants to get agreement to sell financial services in India for example. ---------- Post added 11-07-2017 at 09:03 ---------- This man deserves a jail sentence IMO. http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/crime/gina-miller-viscount-rhodri-colwyn-philipps-st-davids-westminster-magistrates-court-brexit-a7834636.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 No, what make people stupid is not reading previous posts that stated that the media or the campaigning leading to the referendum had no influence on the decision. Possibly one of the stupidest posts in the whole discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 To add to that trade negotiations usually involve discussions around movement of people. Maybe not the USA but certainly China and India would look for massive concessions from the UK in that respect. Both for example produce way more graduates than they have roles for. I'd expect the terms to be punative. We'd probably have to accept high volumes of immigrants to get agreement to sell financial services in India for example.No 'probably' about it: May has met Modi twice since the referendum, and May was consistently asked by Modi to lower immigration barriers/facilitate visas for Indian students and highly-skilled economic migrants as India's main condition for a trade deal. See e.g. this. May has nixed the notion, so deal talks with India are pretty much stalled for the time being (to say nothing of the statutory bar on UK-India FTA discussions whilst the UK is still in the EU). Take more Indian students and highly skilled workers (presumably, in replacement of EU students and highly skilled workers, lest immigration figures explode) or no FTA. Which one do Leavers favour, out of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 [/color]This man deserves a jail sentence IMO. http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/crime/gina-miller-viscount-rhodri-colwyn-philipps-st-davids-westminster-magistrates-court-brexit-a7834636.html He should be sectioned, but that would set a troublesome precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNugget Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1. We sell more to the rest of the world than the EU while we are in the EU. So how is the EU stopping us from selling to the rest of the world? And if it is then why are the Germans, for example, such successful exporters to the rest of the world and why do they not feel constrained by the EU? We don't know the terms of any trade deals that might happen but it's naive in the extreme to assume they will be completely to our benefit. 2. So we can already control half our immigration but persist in refusing to do so, and you say around half when you know that more than half of our net gain is non-EU. 3. You know we can opt out from ever closer integration. Cameron secured that agreement. 4. In terms of economic growth the UK has flourished while in the EU. You may find this hard to comprehend but we are one of the winners from it with decent growth and low unemployment. Anyway, as I said in previous posts the game is up. People are starting to comprehend the economic pain your fantasies require, and that pain is starting to be felt by a lot of people. Time to back down from this ridiculous plan before too much damage is done 1. In your opinion. As you say the terms are not known so doom mongering is just speculation. 2. We do control immigration from outside of the EU. Brexit affords the opportunity to control all immigration. How the government of the day chooses to implement that at any given future point is a different matter. The fact is we can self determine it. 3. The path of the Union is to closer integration. Why fight it. If that's what they want then let them get on with it. The fact is that the majority decided to not be part of that. 4. It is speculation to assume we have flourished over and above what would have happened if we had gone it alone. This is a global world. EU growth is relatively slow compared to the rest of the world. Why not try something new. It's happening - get over it! ---------- Post added 11-07-2017 at 09:42 ---------- How are we penalised? It is not that the EU can't get a deal, it is that they are holding out for a good deal. TTIP for example is taking so long to negotiate because America is looking to screw us. On our own, we don't have the weight to carry through the terms we might want, and we won't have the time to hold out. Because we export more to the rest of the world than the EU and the EU has proven ineffectual at negotiating trade agreements with the rest of the world. Stands to reason really when you have 28 national interests to look out for. It will be much easier when we don't have to worry about potato farmers in Romania or whatever... ---------- Post added 11-07-2017 at 09:44 ---------- To add to that trade negotiations usually involve discussions around movement of people. Maybe not the USA but certainly China and India would look for massive concessions from the UK in that respect. Both for example produce way more graduates than they have roles for. I'd expect the terms to be punative. We'd probably have to accept high volumes of immigrants to get agreement to sell financial services in India for example. Great! We'll take all the graduates we can get! You seem to equate Brexit to anti- immigration. I'm all for immigration - of the type and quality of our choosing! ---------- Post added 11-07-2017 at 09:46 ---------- No 'probably' about it: May has met Modi twice since the referendum, and May was consistently asked by Modi to lower immigration barriers/facilitate visas for Indian students and highly-skilled economic migrants as India's main condition for a trade deal. See e.g. this. May has nixed the notion, so deal talks with India are pretty much stalled for the time being (to say nothing of the statutory bar on UK-India FTA discussions whilst the UK is still in the EU). Take more Indian students and highly skilled workers (presumably, in replacement of EU students and highly skilled workers, lest immigration figures explode) or no FTA. Which one do Leavers favour, out of interest? Either - it's a global economy so it doesn't really matter where someone originated from. In the EU we don't just get EU students and skilled workers though do we? We get whoever turns up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Because we export more to the rest of the world than the EU... Doesn't seem likely: you'll need to provide figures. Great! We'll take all the graduates we can get! You seem to equate Brexit to anti- immigration. If Brexit is not about immigration, then why all the fuss about freedom of movement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 How are we penalised? It is not that the EU can't get a deal, it is that they are holding out for a good deal. TTIP for example is taking so long to negotiate because America is looking to screw us. On our own, we don't have the weight to carry through the terms we might want, and we won't have the time to hold out. Fun fact - it is the UK that over the past years has been actively pushing for TTIP despite knowing that it would mean rampant privatisation of the NHS for example. The EU decided quite some time ago that it wasn't keen on those grounds. It is yet another clear cut example where people not knowing what they are actually talking about are cheering it along under the 'Brexit is Great' mantra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNugget Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Doesn't seem likely: you'll need to provide figures. If Brexit is not about immigration, then why all the fuss about freedom of movement? Here you go - 56% of our exports go outside of the EU. https://fullfact.org/europe/do-half-uks-exports-go-europe/ There is no fuss here about movement of people. I'm all for controlled immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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