catpus Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 @TCH ''Are you seriously complaining about the government spending £9 million pounds on a leaflet when the Brexit vote has so far cost us over 9,000 times that amount? Question - how can we possibly know the truth about this?'' For me this is pure and simple obfuscation designed to keep us from the wider picture. In 1973 Heath took us into the European Community In 1975 Wilson gave us a referendum which 66% of us voted IN. Thus began the dismantling of all our - Fishing//Coal/Steel/ Ship building/Rail System/and Textile Industries. All allegedly in favour off lower wages - or slave labour that Maggie's investor pals made a killing from (literally.) Except for Germany where that Government 'subsidised' the industries to ensure their workers were happy and they could control the market. It took a while but eventually the German Government came to the realisation that they could save money by keeping wages down and still control the market.... Same old record. The reality is - we have been IN the EU 43 years, and it will take at least another 40 years to extricate ourselves, but the goal posts will keep changing to prevent that? Ideally, I would love to return to Sovereignty, and the self sufficient Industries we had prior to the b**ch Thatcher but I'm afraid the Bankers and vampire Investors have too much at stake to let that happen.. I am very sorry to say that we just have to suck it up and ride the wave. Before the trolls start sniping, I will say that I don't trust any Political party, they are all in it for what they can get, with the exception of a very small percentage. In response to the 'cheap labour picking fruit in Europe' comment - what on earth happened prior to the EU. Did we not get fruit and veg from other countries? And- how on earth do all the countries NOT in the EU go about trading with the rest of the World. Sweden manage to trade alright, has one of the best qualities of life on the planet. Yes they pay higher taxes but also have higher wages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 That’s not a justification for illegality. I agree that if the donations were illegal then action should be taken but what that would be I dont know. Remain got round theirs by having people donate before any donation deadline came into play. The point here though is the donation is currently under investigation so it is still unclear whether it was illegal or not. Vote Leave have twice been cleared of breaching the rules so I wouldn't be surprised if this is also cleared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catpus Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) htt://www.wj.com/articles.the-u-k-is-doingjust-fine-thanks/1521819089 The U.K. Is Doing Just Fine, Thanks. Says the Wall-street Journal:. Despite all the dire Brexit forecasts, the U.K. has had a strikingly good year. Leaving the EU may well boil down to far less, economically, than anyone thought. By Fraser Nelson March 23, 2018 For a country supposedly crawling out of the ruins of the Brexit vote, the U.K. has been having a strikingly good year so far. The number of people working stands at a record high, and income inequality is approaching a 30-year low, according to the Office for National Statistics. New orders for manufacturers are at their highest level in a generation, and employers in general are struggling to find enough staff to cope with demand. Even the (relatively new) national happiness index stands at a peak. My brother in law is testament to this. Demand for his manufactured products have gone through the roof and he has had to employ more people. But then - he is only one that I know of personally. Edited March 25, 2018 by catpus edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 htt://www.wj.com/articles.the-u-k-is-doingjust-fine-thanks/1521819089 The U.K. Is Doing Just Fine, Thanks. Says the Wall-street Journal:. Despite all the dire Brexit forecasts, the U.K. has had a strikingly good year. Leaving the EU may well boil down to far less, economically, than anyone thought. By Fraser Nelson March 23, 2018 For a country supposedly crawling out of the ruins of the Brexit vote, the U.K. has been having a strikingly good year so far. The number of people working stands at a record high, and income inequality is approaching a 30-year low, according to the Office for National Statistics. New orders for manufacturers are at their highest level in a generation, and employers in general are struggling to find enough staff to cope with demand. Even the (relatively new) national happiness index stands at a peak. My brother in law is testament to this. Demand for his manufactured products have gone through the roof and he has had to employ more people. But then - he is only one that I know of personally. again, we havent actually left yet, there is no brexit yet, we havent even done much in the negotiations yet, but carry on with the positive spin propaganda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricgem2002 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Would this be the same WSJ owned by Fox? care to show me where the writer is wrong then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catpus Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) I've just done the maths on that! According to the Financial Times the UK economy has lost £60 billion up to and including November 2017 due to Brexit. That is £60,000 million in 17 months. That is £3,529 million per month since June 2016. That is the equivalent of £117 million per day or £4.9 million per hour. Given that the government leaflet you complain about cost £9 million to produce and distribute, the equivalent of that money was lost to the UK in LESS THAN TWO HOURS after the result was announced. Are you seriously complaining about the government spending £9 million pounds on a leaflet when the Brexit vote has so far cost us over 9,000 times that amount? I agree. I am far more disturbed by - The total cost of replacing the Trident nuclear missile system estimated in 2016 to come to at least £205bn, far more than previously estimated, according to figures drawn up by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Work is expected to begin on replacing the UK's nuclear deterrent from the early 2030s,, so heaven knows what the cost will be then? CND calculated the total on the basis of official figures; answers to parliamentary questions and previous costs of items; including nuclear warheads and decommissioning nuclear reactors. It says it has not taken into account that past Ministry of Defence projects have frequently gone well over budget. The government is expected soon to ask MPs to vote to replace the existing Trident fleet with four new nuclear submarines. The MoD has already spent nearly £4bn on the replacement programme. Last month, it declined to say how much it thought it would cost to replace Trident, and the ministry said the situation has not changed. “The government needs a safe space away from the public gaze to allow it to consider policy options for delivering the deterrent in the most cost-effective way, unfettered from public comment about the affordability of particular policy options,” it said in response to a freedom of information request from Reuters. (Odd - I thought the Public paid their wages, and that they were accountable? Sorry if I got that wrong.) http://www.theguardian/uk-now/2016/may/12/replacing-trident-will-cost-at-least-25-billion-campaig-for-nuclear-disarmament Edited March 25, 2018 by catpus addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 care to show me where the writer is wrong then I can’t read it - it’s behind a paywall But.....answer my question please. Is it the same WSJ owned by Fox (I.e. by Murdoch)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyofborg Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Thus began the dismantling of all our - Fishing//Coal/Steel/ Ship building/Rail System/and Textile Industries. All allegedly in favour off lower wages - or slave labour that Maggie's investor pals made a killing from (literally.) Except for Germany where that Government 'subsidised' the industries to ensure their workers were happy and they could control the market. It took a while but eventually the German Government came to the realisation that they could save money by keeping wages down and still control the market.... Same old record. this would have happened regardless, this was not the EU. the world was changing, china and the other upcoming countries were industrialising at a rapid pace and out competing the uk, not just because of wage differentials but also because they were embracing new technology and new ways of working. By and large, Britain stopped investing in new plant at the end of the Victorian times for all sorts of reasons, Imperial hubris, intransigent unions, risk aversion of the money lenders. We have a similar situation now, thatcher and time took care of the first two of my reasons but the last one is still an issue. the press is full of stories with the general thrust of we create great things here but cant build them here because the inventors cant get funding. previous governments could have done something, they didn't because they believed the "markets would provide the best solution" and they provided what we have now. previous governments could have given the markets some direction and moral focus which might have led to a better situation than we had now but they didn't so the markets followed the money and we have what we have now. the EU put a floor under workers rights and conditions, it funded schemes to regenerate the old industrial areas. previous governments could have used some of that money, and their own, to drive a massive reskilling, training and education program but they didn't. they left it to the market and by and large the market provided low skill jobs and provided as little training as possible. The reality is - we have been IN the EU 43 years, and it will take at least another 40 years to extricate ourselves, but the goal posts will keep changing to prevent that? if only that were true, Ideally, I would love to return to Sovereignty, and the self sufficient Industries we had prior to the b**ch Thatcher but I'm afraid the Bankers and vampire Investors have too much at stake to let that happen.. I am very sorry to say that we just have to suck it up and ride the wave. there is no particular reason why, post brexit, we can't have self sufficient industries, or even pre brexit with a bit of care, all it needs is government will. we have as much Sovereignty as we ever had. it's such a vague word and without knowing exactly what you mean then I'll assume you are pining over some nostalgic 50s-70s fantasy. Prior to the 1950s we had an empire, from then to the 70s our former colonies were finding their feet in the new world. If you want the fantasy sovereignty back then we retake the empire which probably wont be as easy this time round, and walk away from every international commitment, treaty and organisation. the last bit applies even if we don't try and retake the empire, each organisation, treaty and commitment gives away some soveriegnty. In response to the 'cheap labour picking fruit in Europe' comment - what on earth happened prior to the EU. we used cheap fruit picking labour from the EU, there are two specific issues here one is the government is dragging its feet on the cheap eu fruit pickers replacement scheme and most foreigners think we hate them so they dont want to come. we're at nearly full employment, and fruit picking is not an appealing job when even slightly better ones are available. Offering higher wages will just drive up prices and you only have to read here to see how people howl if they find anything which costs more than 20p. Did we not get fruit and veg from other countries? i remember the pre-single market days, there wasn't much and it was expensive. And- how on earth do all the countries NOT in the EU go about trading with the rest of the World. we're going to find out in 12 months, scary eh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 this would have happened regardless, this was not the EU. the world was changing, china and the other upcoming countries were industrialising at a rapid pace and out competing the uk, not just because of wage differentials but also because they were embracing new technology and new ways of working. By and large, Britain stopped investing in new plant at the end of the Victorian times for all sorts of reasons, Imperial hubris, intransigent unions, risk aversion of the money lenders. We have a similar situation now, thatcher and time took care of the first two of my reasons but the last one is still an issue. the press is full of stories with the general thrust of we create great things here but cant build them here because the inventors cant get funding. previous governments could have done something, they didn't because they believed the "markets would provide the best solution" and they provided what we have now. previous governments could have given the markets some direction and moral focus which might have led to a better situation than we had now but they didn't so the markets followed the money and we have what we have now. the EU put a floor under workers rights and conditions, it funded schemes to regenerate the old industrial areas. previous governments could have used some of that money, and their own, to drive a massive reskilling, training and education program but they didn't. they left it to the market and by and large the market provided low skill jobs and provided as little training as possible. if only that were true, there is no particular reason why, post brexit, we can't have self sufficient industries, or even pre brexit with a bit of care, all it needs is government will. we have as much Sovereignty as we ever had. it's such a vague word and without knowing exactly what you mean then I'll assume you are pining over some nostalgic 50s-70s fantasy. Prior to the 1950s we had an empire, from then to the 70s our former colonies were finding their feet in the new world. If you want the fantasy sovereignty back then we retake the empire which probably wont be as easy this time round, and walk away from every international commitment, treaty and organisation. the last bit applies even if we don't try and retake the empire, each organisation, treaty and commitment gives away some soveriegnty. we used cheap fruit picking labour from the EU, there are two specific issues here one is the government is dragging its feet on the cheap eu fruit pickers replacement scheme and most foreigners think we hate them so they dont want to come. we're at nearly full employment, and fruit picking is not an appealing job when even slightly better ones are available. Offering higher wages will just drive up prices and you only have to read here to see how people howl if they find anything which costs more than 20p. i remember the pre-single market days, there wasn't much and it was expensive. we're going to find out in 12 months, scary eh! they enjoy living on mistruths and downright lies, you cant "educate" them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackey lad Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 again, we havent actually left yet, there is no brexit yet, we havent even done much in the negotiations yet, but carry on with the positive spin propaganda But yet you and others can post Negative spin propaganda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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