The New Reality? Us and Them..

[Puggie]

People have always moved from country to country, but its now much cheaper and quicker. So when it was once normal for workers to travel into the countryside for farm job, that traveling is country to country.

 

Please watch this

 

[samssong]

The Globalist view seems to be an ideal worth striving for, until you see the current effects. In the hands of Globalist Corporations it is leading to a race to the bottom for ordinary people, whilst making the Globalists richer, and I see little attempt to change that coming from those with the power to do so.

 

Until we have true Globalisation; that is a world where everyone is created equal, with equal opportunities, and an equal sharing of resources and wealth, Globalisation will continue to favour the few and not the many.

 

Yet at the end of the day, true Globalisation could be the saving of the human race.

Sorry Anna although I wish you could be right I am afraid that war and conflict is a natural phenomenon of the human race ,always has been and always will be .

[Staunton]

The traditional left-right political divide of the past is dying out.

 

We are now diving along very different lines. Globalists vs localists (nationalism)

 

Localists = Believe in the nation state, borders, and putting your fellow countrymen/women first.

 

Globalists = They believe in a borderless world of free movement, global governance, and the belief that your government shouldn't privilege their own citizens

 

This divide hasn't happened over night. We've been slowly sorting ourselves into these two camps over many years. Brexit is simply a ramification.

 

The Globalist view seems to be an ideal worth striving for, until you see the current effects. In the hands of Globalist Corporations it is leading to a race to the bottom for ordinary people, whilst making the Globalists richer, and I see little attempt to change that coming from those with the power to do so.

 

Until we have true Globalisation; that is a world where everyone is created equal, with equal opportunities, and an equal sharing of resources and wealth, Globalisation will continue to favour the few and not the many.

 

Yet at the end of the day, true Globalisation could be the saving of the human race.

 

The themes that Puggie and Anna B discuss seem fascinating, and I think merit further consideration.

 

My OP was prompted by the news that Tayyip Erdoğan's regime has announced the banning of evolutionary theory from the Turkish National Curriculum. This seems to me to echo similar sentiments among religious fundamentalists in the US, sentiments long held by precisely that demographic that rallied to Donald Trump's call.

 

Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's so-called Neo- Ottomanism, his authoritarian attempt to eradicate the Turkish state's secular and pro European Union inclinations seems similarly to reflect something of the UK's Brexit choice.

 

Can we say that there is a new desire for authoritarian politics, expressed in Puggie's 'localist' definition, which contrasts powerfully with the old, democratic liberal globalist perspective?

[El Cid]

Please watch this

 

 

Back in 1955 immigration was less than 100,000 every year, its now 300,000 every year.

I am not pro-immigration; but we have to accept reality. If goods are free to go around the world, so too should people. Otherwise there will be a conflict.

We have climate change, which knows no borders.

It is a failure of Government, when they do not build enough houses. If we had a Government that responded to the needs of its population, there wouldn't be a problem.

But our electoral system, elects MPs that only respond to the wishes of the rich. We need to change our electoral system.

 

---------- Post added 25-06-2017 at 00:29 ----------

 

Localists = Believe in the nation state, borders, and putting your fellow countrymen/women first.

 

Globalists = They believe in a borderless world of free movement, global governance, and the belief that your government shouldn't privilege their own citizens

 

This divide hasn't happened over night. We've been slowly sorting ourselves into these two camps over many years. Brexit is simply a ramification.

 

Localists believe that we should look after the people that have already paid taxes, why would a Government not look after its own tax payers?

[Anna B]

Sorry Anna although I wish you could be right I am afraid that war and conflict is a natural phenomenon of the human race ,always has been and always will be .

 

Is it though?

 

Wars are fought over resources as much as anything else. Share those resources fairly in the first place so everybody has what they need, and that would surely lessen conflict?

 

Or would immigrants be flooding into Britain if their lives were just as good or even better at home?

 

War, killing thousands of innocent victims, ought to be a source of disgust to people. As unacceptable as murder, slavery, paedophilia, and all the other evils we have rejected as a civilised society.

 

We humans strive to end all sorts of things, and develop improvements to people's lives, and we've come a long way when you look back. Why is it considered almost impossible to go further.

[focemal]

To quote Yuval Harai "For the first time in history more die from eating too much than too little; more people die from old age than infectious diseases; and more people commit suicide than are killed by soldiers, terrorists and criminals combined. In the early 21st century, the average human is far more likely to die from bingeing at McDonald's than from drought, Ebola or an al-qaeda attack".

 

Saying that's how it was therefore that's how it will always be does not seem the case.

[Staunton]

Back in 1955 immigration was less than 100,000 every year, its now 300,000 every year. I am not pro-immigration; but we have to accept reality. If goods are free to go around the world, so too should people. Otherwise there will be a conflict.

We have climate change, which knows no borders.

It is a failure of Government, when they do not build enough houses. If we had a Government that responded to the needs of its population, there wouldn't be a problem.

But our electoral system, elects MPs that only respond to the wishes of the rich. We need to change our electoral system.

 

Anna B's struggle to confront the ironies that nestle in this new alignment is interesting. It's a struggle that I share. Perhaps Puggie's point that the old left-right antonymy is giving way is indeed a useful means of considering our present predicament? Have more traditional forms of politics simply given way beneath the pressure that migration and the associated sense of threat to established culture exerts on the Nation State?

 

El Cid makes an interesting observation too - no matter how high Donald Trump's wall, it will not keep out global warming. This is perhaps a reality that only a globalist form of politics could hope to address.

[spilldig]

Quite! And I find it interesting that farmers, anxious about the implications of Brexit, are voicing their concerns that there are not enough unemployed people in Britain to meet the needs of agricultural production.

 

I also don't remember these farmers or anyone in government calling for an increase in the infrastructure for things like GPs surgeries, hospital spaces, schools, more public transport and housing to match the increase it caused in population.

[apelike]

And can we characterise migrants as people following their hearts rather than a political leader or an ideology in their search for stability and security?

 

But are they following their hearts?

 

Many migrants move here and to other countries in the EU only because of the work and income as the country they come from has mass unemployment and poor conditions. One of the ideas of the EU is to help those poor countries develop better conditions, infrastructure and trade but the question then is.. what happens next?

 

When the countries have developed sufficiently will the people then want or need to migrate, will they still move freely in the EU to be used as cheap labour?

 

What then happens to the countries that relied on that cheap labour when its no longer available?

 

---------- Post added 25-06-2017 at 14:13 ----------

 

 

Wars are fought over resources as much as anything else. Share those resources fairly in the first place so everybody has what they need, and that would surely lessen conflict?

 

Many modern wars are fought mainly because of a power struggle or belief, resources don't factor much.

 

Or would immigrants be flooding into Britain if their lives were just as good or even better at home?

 

See my previous comments.

[Anna B]

Money is always the sticking point. 'We can't afford it...' is always the excuse. Yet we can print money by the £billions and give it to the banks, but we can't do it for the benefit of the people.

 

Money and work have lost their relative connection. When we can pay someone millions to shuffle paper, yet someone who risks their life to do their job (I'm thinking of those brave firemen who ran into the burning inferno of the Grenfell Tower to save lives,) is paid a relative pittance... Pay a care home £1,000 a week to look after our elderly, yet a home carer, who may well have had to give up their job, is paid a megre £60 a week to do the job single handed 24/7, something is out of kilter. We rob poor countries of all their resources, then quibble when we have to give them back crumbs in aid to sustain their meagre existence.

 

There is more money in the system than ever before in history, yet it is being squirreled away into the private bank accounts of a few very rich individuals who sit on it, even though they already have more money than some small countries, while people suffer and starve for want of a few pounds.

 

How long can we continue this insanity? And it will undoubtedly get worse because it is designed that way, the dice are loaded.

Something has gone seriously wrong. If governments do not look after people, then who will? Or sooner or later might the people be tempted to take matters into their own hands...?

Edited June 25, 2017 by Anna B