Gender Fluid etc, Opinions?

[Robin-H]

If you were in a group with a bunch of women, would you be happy if I said, 'hey girls!' - every day, for 5 years?

 

 

 

In certain contexts yes. Who is banning 'father' and 'mother'?

 

 

I thought she was speaking at the Girls' School Association's annual conference?

 

Isn't the bigger question around whether trans boys should be allowed in girl's schools, or whether schools should be allowed to be segregated by gender at all?

[Guest]

If you were in a group with a bunch of women, would you be happy if I said, 'hey girls!' - every day, for 5 years?

 

I'm clearly male so that would just be ignorant.

 

What did you mean by "trans boy" in your example?

[marymalade]

I'm clearly male so that would just be ignorant.

 

What did you mean by "trans boy" in your example?

 

A trans boy is a child who is transitioning from female to male. It's just as ignorant to do it to him - it's exactly the same!

 

---------- Post added 30-01-2018 at 16:45 ----------

 

Isn't the bigger question around whether trans boys should be allowed in girl's schools, or whether schools should be allowed to be segregated by gender at all?

 

I'm not sure what the answer here is. I probably agree; gender segregation isn't an ideal way to run schools. But, I think a trans boy shouldn't be kicked out of a girl's school - it would be a very traumatic upheaval. As to what to do with a potential trans boy student who wanted to come to a girls' school - again I have no easy answer.

[alchresearch]

Surprise, she was totally misreported and never actually banned the word 'girls'. She was being sensitive to those transgender pupils in the school. And the rationale behind using 'people' - what is so terrible about that?.

 

Was she misreported, or is it just a case of back-tracking after the event?

 

The article was in the Telegraph, not the Daily Mail, as the LBC link states.

[ENG601PM]

Whichever it was, it does highlight the problems that arise when people make gender an issue. Identity politics is to blame yet again.

 

Here's my off the top of my head solution to this silly headteacher's problem.

Stage 1: Call the children "children".

Stage 2: Call trans children by their name.

 

 

Finally, one for the government - have an 18 YO minimum age limit for transition to give everyone a bit of time to think and see where their hormones and emotions are headed while avoiding some overly indulgent parent's whims.

[marymalade]

Here's my off the top of my head solution to this silly headteacher's problem.

Stage 1: Call the children "children".

Stage 2: Call trans children by their name.

 

Yep - 'children' seems to be a good compromise to me. Think you can still call a trans girl a girl, or a trans boy a boy if the situation calls for it.

 

Finally, one for the government - have an 18 YO minimum age limit for transition to give everyone a bit of time to think and see where their hormones and emotions are headed while avoiding some overly indulgent parent's whims.

 

Ah now I don't agree so much here. Time to clear up a few myths.

 

The newspapers are often ranting about transition at 5 or whatever but virtually nobody understands what this actually means for the 5 year old. Are you ready? It means that they get to use a different name and pronouns. That's it.

 

Then when they hit puberty, and this is very much on a case by case basis, then the NHS can delay the effects by prescribing a puberty blocker. Again, this is perfectly safe and doesn't do anything permanent - It was designed for kids who undergo puberty at an inappropriately young age.

 

They take this until they hit 16, at which time they can undergo hormone treatment. Then at 18 and not before, they can ask for gender confirmation surgery.

 

When you talk about parent's whims, in these instances, the kids are in terrible distress about their gender - I know a fair few parents of trans kids on twitter, and none of them chose this. Why would you? Refusing any treatment, or steps towards transition (however small they might be) would lead to more kids committing suicide.

[Robin-H]

Yep - 'children' seems to be a good compromise to me. Think you can still call a trans girl a girl, or a trans boy a boy if the situation calls for it.

 

 

 

Ah now I don't agree so much here. Time to clear up a few myths.

 

The newspapers are often ranting about transition at 5 or whatever but virtually nobody understands what this actually means for the 5 year old. Are you ready? It means that they get to use a different name and pronouns. That's it.

 

Then when they hit puberty, and this is very much on a case by case basis, then the NHS can delay the effects by prescribing a puberty blocker. Again, this is perfectly safe and doesn't do anything permanent - It was designed for kids who undergo puberty at an inappropriately young age.

 

They take this until they hit 16, at which time they can undergo hormone treatment. Then at 18 and not before, they can ask for gender confirmation surgery.

 

When you talk about parent's whims, in these instances, the kids are in terrible distress about their gender - I know a fair few parents of trans kids on twitter, and none of them chose this. Why would you? Refusing any treatment, or steps towards transition (however small they might be) would lead to more kids committing suicide.

 

Now I would be careful what you are espousing here. That might not be true at all, and it could well be dangerous.

 

https://world.wng.org/content/doctors_puberty_blockers_are_a_dangerous_experiment

 

"Indeed, “there are virtually no published reports, even case studies, of adolescents withdrawing from puberty-suppressing drugs and then resuming the normal pubertal development typical for their sex,” according to the authors"

[marymalade]

Now I would be careful what you are espousing here. That might not be true at all, and it could well be dangerous.

 

https://world.wng.org/content/doctors_puberty_blockers_are_a_dangerous_experiment

 

"Indeed, “there are virtually no published reports, even case studies, of adolescents withdrawing from puberty-suppressing drugs and then resuming the normal pubertal development typical for their sex,” according to the authors"

 

I am aware of the original article that is cited in the page that you shared. It's from The New Atlantic, a right wing periodical that is NOT peer reviewed. And Paul McHugh, one of the authors, is not a reputable source. He's a a religious extremist and leading member of an anti-gay and anti-trans hate group, who presents himself as a reputable source but publishes work, again, without peer review.

 

In regard to the comment you made - I think that as much as anything else is to do with the limited number of studies done in this area. Like I said, kids are begging their parents and anyone who will listen for these blockers. Why would they come off them?

[Robin-H]

I am aware of the original article that is cited in the page that you shared. It's from The New Atlantic, a right wing periodical that is NOT peer reviewed. And Paul McHugh, one of the authors, is not a reputable source. He's a a religious extremist and leading member of an anti-gay and anti-trans hate group, who presents himself as a reputable source but publishes work, again, without peer review.

 

In regard to the comment you made - I think that as much as anything else is to do with the limited number of studies done in this area. Like I said, kids are begging their parents and anyone who will listen for these blockers. Why would they come off them?

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Don't you think more studies should be done before this is recommended to people?

 

You ask why would people come off them as if it's a genuine question. I hope I don't have to answer that, the answer is obvious surely?

[marymalade]

The (actual peer-reviewed) studies have shown that patients who have suppressed puberty have significantly better outcomes. It would be irresponsible, and would harm the patient to take that away. Besides - do you really think there are a load of institutions queuing up to fund further studies?

 

http://jme.bmj.com/content/34/8/580

 

'Transgender children who are not treated for their condition are at high risk of violence and suicide. As a matter of survival, many are willing to take whatever help is available, even if this is offered by illegal sources, and this often traps them into the juvenile criminal system and exposes them to various threats. Endocrinology offers a revolutionary instrument to help children/adolescents with gender identity disorder: suspension of puberty. Suspension of puberty raises many ethical issues, and experts dissent as to when treatment should be commenced and how children should be followed up. This paper argues that suspension of puberty is not only not unethical: if it is likely to improve the child’s quality of life and even save his or her life, then it is indeed unethical to defer treatment'

Edited January 31, 2018 by marymalade