Hashtag Me Too.

[tinfoilhat]

I think this is actually a good question.

 

What is 'harassment' and what isn't?

 

Let's think about how many, many people meet their significant other - in a club/pub. How many times have people danced up, put their hands around people's waists etc (or far, far more from what I've seen). Is that harassment, or part of the 'courting' process, to use a phrase from the 70s? Is that acceptable?

 

I remember a barrister complaining very vocally about a QC sending her a message on Linkedin, saying her profile photo was very attractive. He didn't say he wanted to sleep with her, or anything other than he thought she was very attractive. She didn't want that attention, and therefore brought it to public attention. Is that harassment? She clearly felt so, but is she right? Isn't it a very subjective question? One person's unwanted harassment is another's compliment surely?

 

Where is the line drawn - I agree it's a good question.

 

I think the line has been fluid through the years. It seems to be getting inked in now - for better or worse.

[Halibut]

I think this is actually a good question.

 

What is 'harassment' and what isn't?

 

Let's think about how many, many people meet their significant other - in a club/pub. How many times have people danced up, put their hands around people's waists etc (or far, far more from what I've seen). Is that harassment, or part of the 'courting' process, to use a phrase from the 70s? Is that acceptable?

 

No it isn't. Touching somebody without invitation is unnacceptable behaviour.

 

I remember a barrister complaining very vocally about a QC sending her a message on Linkedin, saying her profile photo was very attractive. He didn't say he wanted to sleep with her, or anything other than he thought she was very attractive. She didn't want that attention, and therefore brought it to public attention. Is that harassment? She clearly felt so, but is she right? Isn't it a very subjective question? One person's unwanted harassment is another's compliment surely?

 

Where is the line drawn - I agree it's a good question.

 

Linkedin is a business site isn't it? Unprofessional behavour and a clearly unwanted sexual advance. If she feels harrassed she has every right to complain.

[Andy1976]

No it isn't. Touching somebody without invitation is unnacceptable behaviour.

 

So, everyone who has ever done that on a night out, as a young male, is guilty of sexual harassment? Despite the fact that millions and millions of relationships have formed that way?

 

Are you suggesting people should ask? 'Hi, may I dance with you?'

 

You do realise that quite simply isn't ever going to happen. At all.

 

Where's the line drawn? Is putting your arm around someone harassment? Is telling someone you think they're attractive harassment?

 

Linkedin is a business site isn't it? Unprofessional behavour and a clearly unwanted sexual advance. If she feels harrassed she has every right to complain.

 

How is telling someone they're attractive a sexual advance? I told my friend she looked really pretty the other day. I was stood next to her husband. I can assure you there was no sexual advance there at all. She just looked nice.

 

If you think a compliment is a 'sexual advance' you may wish to consider whether that's something about how you act. Do you only tell people they look nice when you want to sleep with them? I often compliment people who I have no sexual interest in personally.

[Mister M]

I think this is actually a good question.

 

What is 'harassment' and what isn't?

 

Let's think about how many, many people meet their significant other - in a club/pub. How many times have people danced up, put their hands around people's waists etc (or far, far more from what I've seen). Is that harassment, or part of the 'courting' process, to use a phrase from the 70s? Is that acceptable?

 

I remember a barrister complaining very vocally about a QC sending her a message on Linkedin, saying her profile photo was very attractive. He didn't say he wanted to sleep with her, or anything other than he thought she was very attractive. She didn't want that attention, and therefore brought it to public attention. Is that harassment? She clearly felt so, but is she right? Isn't it a very subjective question? One person's unwanted harassment is another's compliment surely?

 

Where is the line drawn - I agree it's a good question.

 

I remember that too, last year I think. It's also about what's deemed newsworthy - powerful people attract media attention.

There will be laws about what constitutes harassment, though people have different thresholds about what's acceptable or not.

 

I was listening to the radio last night and a woman was talking common sense about how people shouldn't conflate admiring glances with actual physical assault. She made a very good point about how the culture we now live in is hyper sexualised, yet this also runs alongside a censorious attitude about people reactions to this sexualised culture. Sadly she was shouted down by the presenter.

 

I don't want to belittle people's experiences. I think whilst there is a media storm about what's happening in Parliament, or on Linkedin; we know that there are many towns and cities where young children are being groomed for sexual exploitation by gangs of men. That's the priority for me.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Mister M

[Andy1976]

I think the line has been fluid through the years. It seems to be getting inked in now - for better or worse.

 

Totally agree - it's such a subjective thing though that I can't see there could possibly ever be a line. How could there be?

 

We can all agree, I'm sure, that unwanted groping is wrong, at least I think we can agree that, but there are so many shades of grey as to make any regulation or definition impossible.

 

The example above - telling someone they look very nice. I often do that with no desire to do anything other than compliment someone. Why should that be outlawed? Clearly though, some take offence (or simply want to be offended). Who decides if it's right or wrong?

 

---------- Post added 30-10-2017 at 15:00 ----------

 

I don't want to belittle people's experiences. I think whilst there is a media storm about what's happening in Parliament, or on Linkedin; we know that there are many towns and cities where young children are being groomed for sexual exploitation by gangs of men. That's the priority for me.

 

Very, very sensible comment in my view. There are far more pressing things to legislate on than whether putting your arm around a woman in a bar is a punishable offence.

[melthebell]

i clearly see plenty of lines that have been drawn in a lot of cases, like the Harvey Weinstein case, if a young lady goes to a room to get a part in a film and he turns up at the door in a towel and then drops it...thats going over the line, same with drunken mps slapping the arse of assistants while at work (mps in a lot of cases) that are married.

 

These are work places, not pubs or nightclubs

[Andy1976]

i clearly see plenty of lines that have been drawn in a lot of cases, like the Harvey Weinstein case, if a young lady goes to a room to get a part in a film and he turns up at the door in a towel and then drops it...thats going over the line, same with drunken mps slapping the arse of assistants while at work (mps in a lot of cases) that are married.

 

These are work places, not pubs or nightclubs

 

Agree with those, and that's fine.

 

It's been suggested though that telling someone they're attractive is an 'unwanted sexual advance'. I say that's ridiculous, others clearly disagree. How can a line possibly be drawn? I agree with the above that clearly there's become some desire for lines to be drawn. Who decides on where they are, what's acceptable and what isn't? As it stands - MPs!

[sgtkate]

Agree with those, and that's fine.

 

It's been suggested though that telling someone they're attractive is an 'unwanted sexual advance'. I say that's ridiculous, others clearly disagree. How can a line possibly be drawn? I agree with the above that clearly there's become some desire for lines to be drawn. Who decides on where they are, what's acceptable and what isn't? As it stands - MPs!

 

For me it has to come down to context. Let's say I'm at a bar and someone comes over to me and polite says that they think I'm attractive and would I like a drink. Do I feel harassed? No. If they come over put an arm around me and say they want to <swear word> me, do I feel harassed? Most definitely.

 

Another way to look at it is why does your opinion of someone else matter except in your own head? If you want to tell someone they are attractive why are you doing that? If you fancy them or want to get to know them better or even want to take them to the back alley for some action, why not just talk to them in the first place and indicate you find them attractive without saying it as the opening gambit?

 

Also, if a guy did come over and put his arm around me and I asked him not to and he apologized genuinely then no issues. We all misread situations at times and it's how you deal with the mistake that's the most important.

Edited October 30, 2017 by sgtkate

[Andy1976]

For me it has to come down to context. Let's say I'm at a bar and someone comes over to me and polite says that they think I'm attractive and would I like a drink. Do I feel harassed? No. If they come over put an arm around me and say they want to <swear word> me, do I feel harassed? Most definitely.

 

Another way to look at it is why does your opinion of someone else matter except in your own head? If you want to tell someone they are attractive why are you doing that? If you fancy them or want to get to know them better or even want to take them to the back alley for some action, why not just talk to them in the first place and indicate you find them attractive without saying it as the opening gambit?

 

Also, if a guy did come over and put his arm around me and I asked him not to and he apologized genuinely then no issues. We all misread situations at times and it's how you deal with the mistake that's the most important.

 

I agree, and context is why it's so hard to legislate something. As has been said, it seems though that there's a desire to draw lines, but I think it's impossible.

 

As for why my view of someone matters except to me - I find that odd. As I said, I thought a friend looked nice, so told her. She was very pleased indeed, and very happy I'd told her. Nothing sexual at all, and in theory, no I didn't need to tell her, but why not?

 

Going back to the initial question/post, which I felt was hugely dismissed, what's been said here proves the OP's point. There have been hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people saying 'Me too'. Is there an epidemic of sexual assault going around, or lots of people jumping on a bandwagon? Who decides if they're able to use that hashtag? Perhaps someone told them they were attractive and they didn't like it (as per the barrister). Are they entitled to use that hashtag?

 

It doesn't really matter of course, unless you try to define and legislate it, which I agree looks likely.

[melthebell]

Agree with those, and that's fine.

 

It's been suggested though that telling someone they're attractive is an 'unwanted sexual advance'. I say that's ridiculous, others clearly disagree. How can a line possibly be drawn? I agree with the above that clearly there's become some desire for lines to be drawn. Who decides on where they are, what's acceptable and what isn't? As it stands - MPs!

bearing in mind, none of this is legal or illegal...yet, its simpley people saying they have had UNWANTED sexual activity, it will be up to the police and courts to draw that line, im sure some cases will get discarded, im sure quite a lot will be looked into.