Greed of the Super Rich, Lizzie in Trouble.

[Anna B]

In 2010 there were questions on sheffieldforum about what was happening on Fargate as banks and mobile phone stores were subject to demonstration and occupation. I answered that UKUncut were drawing attention to the scandal of tax abuse. Seven years on, the destruction of the tax base is almost complete, and the services that most families depend upon, state schools, hospitals, social care, the police, etc., lie in ruins. I suspect we are now powerless to change the situation. Perhaps 2010 was too late. Are we now simply to watch the slow dissolution of our culture, the slavery of all to the irresponsible, hateful logic of finance capitalism?

 

I remember well the Furore that Occupy caused following the banking crash of 2008 and the opposition it garnered on Sheffield Forum.

 

It has become more and more apparent that Occupy's message was indeed correct and is being borne out as we speak, but still some ordinary people seem to want to defend their money grabbing overlords, and encourage their own personal impoverishment. This I simply do not understand.

 

How much more proof do they need that things are not going to improve for them, unless they are prepared to stand together and fight for what is right to turn this around.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Anna B

[Cyclone]

*my bold

 

Perhaps you could help us here. What is, in your opinion, aggressive tax avoidance? I know it goes against the grain for you admit to any grey areas where decisions/opinions can vary from case to case but thats how our legislatiuon evolves. Stated cases refine and redefine the legislation to deal with unintended use of laws.

 

IMO its aggressive tax avoidance when you . . . . .

- Land your personal jet in a location for 50 minutes to avoid tax and

lease a pair of diamond earrings to your wife when she wears them to avoid tax -

. . . . it goes against the spirit of the law AND that should make it illegal.

 

As far as I understand it LH has committed VAT fraud, not aggressive avoidance. He's made an untrue declaration that the jet is for business use only, but it isn't.

No idea about the leasing, presumably that's keeping an asset in a company and charging out the rental of them... No idea what HMRC would make of that.

This thread however is about investing in offshore funds, not the things above. Investing in offshore funds is not evasion or even the made up thing, aggressive avoidance.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 07:33 ----------

 

That’s complete crap. Some of the usage of it clearly is aggressive avoidance, some is evasion, money laundering etc... Take your pick.

 

You're fundamentally wrong.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 07:34 ----------

 

I suspect the issue here is that corporate offshoring is bad because Cyclone doesn't do it, and personal tax avoidance is fine because Cyclone does do it.

 

Nope, I'm not in a position to invest money offshore. I make use of a pension to avoid tax, and an ISA some years, but that's it.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 07:35 ----------

 

I cant speak for Cyclone but if Ive £131m in the bank and Im arranging my shiney new plane to be delivered on the Isle of Man and not where I live in Monaco, purely to avoid paying VAT, thats aggressive tax avoidance and it would make me a bit of **** head.

 

This thread is not about dodging VAT. It's about offshore investing.

 

I can see that several people can't stand to stick to the topic, because bashing the rich is easier if you just conflate all financial behaviour as being the same, but I haven't defended VAT dodging, or corporate offshoring of profit.

[I1L2T3]

You're fundamentally wrong

 

No I’m completely correct.

 

Once again ISAs can not be classed the same as aggressive tax avoidance.

 

Your argument is a simplistic dog whistle that pivots around both being legal. I get that but it’s irrelevant. Utterly so.

 

Using ISAs is economically virtuous behaviour. Aggressive tax avoidance is not.

 

We’ve had this same argument over the years, and I’ve had it with umpteen other IT contractors who use offshore tax avoidance schemes. I don’t have a problem with that necessarily. I have a problem with aggressive avoidance.

 

We are not talking about the same thing, not in a million years. Using the ISA argument is lumping ordinary people together with criminals, money launderers and aggressive avoiders. It’s not helpful. In fact it’s insulting.

[Staunton]

This thread is not about dodging VAT. It's about offshore investing.

 

The Queen is cheating Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. The irony hardly needs pointing out.

 

While the wealthy cheat the system and people continue bickering about the details, the corporate totalitarian project has simply cancelled democracy and neutered politics. Politicians are nothing more than a tragic sideshow.

 

To pretend that someone with an ISA is the same as a multi-billion dollar corporation paying no tax is simply ridiculous, but that's not the point.

 

The question now, for most people is how do we survive?

 

Yesterday, the management of Uber issued a statement that their workers can be paid less than the minimum wage because they enjoy perks like freedom and flexibility. There it is, the rallying call of neoliberalism - 'freedom'. Not much use really is it, if you are hungry and cannot pay the bills, but who cares? Not the corporations.

 

The public sector has been served notice. Already destaffed and demoralised, there is only a pretence of service provision.

 

The age of politics is over, now the difficulty facing us is survival.

[tinfoilhat]

As far as I understand it LH has committed VAT fraud, not aggressive avoidance. He's made an untrue declaration that the jet is for business use only, but it isn't.

No idea about the leasing, presumably that's keeping an asset in a company and charging out the rental of them... No idea what HMRC would make of that.

This thread however is about investing in offshore funds, not the things above. Investing in offshore funds is not evasion or even the made up thing, aggressive avoidance.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 07:33 ----------

 

 

You're fundamentally wrong.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 07:34 ----------

 

 

Nope, I'm not in a position to invest money offshore. I make use of a pension to avoid tax, and an ISA some years, but that's it.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 07:35 ----------

 

 

This thread is not about dodging VAT. It's about offshore investing.

 

I can see that several people can't stand to stick to the topic, because bashing the rich is easier if you just conflate all financial behaviour as being the same, but I haven't defended VAT dodging, or corporate offshoring of profit.

 

I thought it was about the paradise papers, of which hamiltons Isle of man visit was revealed.

 

But no, feel free to dictate the thread as you see fit.

[ANGELFIRE1]

Maybe every one should just pay their dues and demands in an ideal world, then there is no problem.

 

Angel1

[Robin-H]

The Queen is cheating Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. The irony hardly needs pointing out.

 

While the wealthy cheat the system and people continue bickering about the details, the corporate totalitarian project has simply cancelled democracy and neutered politics. Politicians are nothing more than a tragic sideshow.

 

To pretend that someone with an ISA is the same as a multi-billion dollar corporation paying no tax is simply ridiculous, but that's not the point.

 

The question now, for most people is how do we survive?

 

Yesterday, the management of Uber issued a statement that their workers can be paid less than the minimum wage because they enjoy perks like freedom and flexibility. There it is, the rallying call of neoliberalism - 'freedom'. Not much use really is it, if you are hungry and cannot pay the bills, but who cares? Not the corporations.

 

The public sector has been served notice. Already destaffed and demoralised, there is only a pretence of service provision.

 

The age of politics is over, now the difficulty facing us is survival.

 

The Queen pays tax voluntarily - that's not exactly cheating HMRC is it?

[sgtkate]

The Queen is cheating Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. The irony hardly needs pointing out.

 

While the wealthy cheat the system and people continue bickering about the details, the corporate totalitarian project has simply cancelled democracy and neutered politics. Politicians are nothing more than a tragic sideshow.

 

To pretend that someone with an ISA is the same as a multi-billion dollar corporation paying no tax is simply ridiculous, but that's not the point.

 

The question now, for most people is how do we survive?

 

Yesterday, the management of Uber issued a statement that their workers can be paid less than the minimum wage because they enjoy perks like freedom and flexibility. There it is, the rallying call of neoliberalism - 'freedom'. Not much use really is it, if you are hungry and cannot pay the bills, but who cares? Not the corporations.

 

The public sector has been served notice. Already destaffed and demoralised, there is only a pretence of service provision.

 

The age of politics is over, now the difficulty facing us is survival.

 

Do you actually have evidence the Queen avoided tax on that money? As cyclone, loob and MANY others have pointed out, I can legally and ethically go and invest my money in a company or fund run out of Bermuda simply because I believe that will make me money. The information on that investment can be made available to HMRC as required and therefore my income from that investment is taxed as I am a UK resident. Do not assume that EVERY investment overseas is part of a tax dodge and focus on the ones that are. Confusing the 2 things is how the message unravels as the rich can more easily defend themselves if people don't understand the actual economics and laws involved.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 14:17 ----------

 

No I’m completely correct.

 

Once again ISAs can not be classed the same as aggressive tax avoidance.

 

Your argument is a simplistic dog whistle that pivots around both being legal. I get that but it’s irrelevant. Utterly so.

 

Using ISAs is economically virtuous behaviour. Aggressive tax avoidance is not.

 

We’ve had this same argument over the years, and I’ve had it with umpteen other IT contractors who use offshore tax avoidance schemes. I don’t have a problem with that necessarily. I have a problem with aggressive avoidance.

 

We are not talking about the same thing, not in a million years. Using the ISA argument is lumping ordinary people together with criminals, money launderers and aggressive avoiders. It’s not helpful. In fact it’s insulting.

 

I'm sorry, I feel very similarly to you ethically, but you are wrong in this. You and I can now go and invest in a company in Bermuda. We can do this perfectly legally and ethically as long as the income from that investment is declared to HMRC as a UK resident. Where the problems lies and is being abused is when you create a company based in a tax haven for the sole purpose of funnelling money through to make it appear as though it comes from that country and therefore avoids tax, but even this profit can still have tax applied to it by the UK if declared. So again, the issue is not to do with the offshoring at all, but with making it almost impossible for HMRC to trace and therefore being unaware. That's the part we need to clamp down upon.

 

I currently hold shares in America, Asia, Africa and Europe. Am I somehow a 'tax dodger' who you want to put in the same category as money launderers?

[Staunton]

Do you actually have evidence the Queen avoided tax on that money? As cyclone, loob and MANY others have pointed out, I can legally and ethically go and invest my money in a company or fund run out of Bermuda simply because I believe that will make me money. The information on that investment can be made available to HMRC as required and therefore my income from that investment is taxed as I am a UK resident. Do not assume that EVERY investment overseas is part of a tax dodge and focus on the ones that are. Confusing the 2 things is how the message unravels as the rich can more easily defend themselves if people don't understand the actual economics and laws involved.

 

Taxation has become optional for wealthy individuals and for businesses. Go on quibbling and distracting if you wish.

 

Tax abuse is a central component of finance capitalism. Another central component is the destruction of democracy. So, even if you care at all about teachers, nurses and care workers there is nothing you can do.

 

As I've pointed out many times on this forum, big business does not hate tax. Big business loves taxes, they don't trouble themselves with paying taxes but they joyfully exploit to the taxes that ordinary people pay. They help themselves (with a bit of assistance from their friends in Westminster and local authority management). Even as schools and hospitals drift into the hands of private interests and policing and prisons become the preserve of G4S and Serco, as social care is destabilised and destroyed, and as democracy is obliterated, there is no viable resistance, no way to call for change.

 

The public realm is gone. Private profit is the only mechanism today.

 

Survival is now the urgent concern for ordinary people.

[Mister M]

I remember well the Furore that Occupy caused following the banking crash of 2008 and the opposition it garnered on Sheffield Forum.

 

It has become more and more apparent that Occupy's message was indeed correct and is being borne out as we speak, but still some ordinary people seem to want to defend their money grabbing overlords, and encourage their own personal impoverishment. This I simply do not understand.

 

How much more proof do they need that things are not going to improve for them, unless they are prepared to stand together and fight for what is right to turn this around.

 

I remember that thread as well....lol.

 

That bankers pushed many millions worldwide into penury, and evaded prosecution in this country wasn't a problem.

It was the fact that some scruffy people set up a few tents outside Sheffield Cathedral in protest, and were probably claiming benefits that caused much of the outrage on here....