Greed of the Super Rich, Lizzie in Trouble.

[I1L2T3]

Do you actually have evidence the Queen avoided tax on that money? As cyclone, loob and MANY others have pointed out, I can legally and ethically go and invest my money in a company or fund run out of Bermuda simply because I believe that will make me money. The information on that investment can be made available to HMRC as required and therefore my income from that investment is taxed as I am a UK resident. Do not assume that EVERY investment overseas is part of a tax dodge and focus on the ones that are. Confusing the 2 things is how the message unravels as the rich can more easily defend themselves if people don't understand the actual economics and laws involved.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 14:17 ----------

 

 

I'm sorry, I feel very similarly to you ethically, but you are wrong in this. You and I can now go and invest in a company in Bermuda. We can do this perfectly legally and ethically as long as the income from that investment is declared to HMRC as a UK resident. Where the problems lies and is being abused is when you create a company based in a tax haven for the sole purpose of funnelling money through to make it appear as though it comes from that country and therefore avoids tax, but even this profit can still have tax applied to it by the UK if declared. So again, the issue is not to do with the offshoring at all, but with making it almost impossible for HMRC to trace and therefore being unaware. That's the part we need to clamp down upon.

 

I currently hold shares in America, Asia, Africa and Europe. Am I somehow a 'tax dodger' who you want to put in the same category as money launderers?

 

You must have missed the bit where I said I dont necessarily have a problem with offshore investment, and the bit where I said that I do have a problem with aggressive avoidance.

 

The sad fact is that the small fry who choose to use those services are almost like a cover for the bad guys. Like you say confidentiality helps with that.

 

The bad guys get even more cover with the ISA argument. It’s designed to stop people in their tracks before they even question aggressive avoidance.

[Anna B]

I remember that thread as well....lol.

 

That bankers pushed many millions worldwide into penury, and evaded prosecution in this country wasn't a problem.

It was the fact that some scruffy people set up a few tents outside Sheffield Cathedral in protest, and were probably claiming benefits that caused much of the outrage on here....

 

But their message was clear and has been proved right over and over again.

They were fundamental in getting the message across to a wider audience, but obviously not wide enough.

 

Unbelievably some people still insist in defending those who are making them poorer. It's not going to stop and very few people will be immune to the effects of this long term. When they are living in a third world country they will wish they'd listened.

[Bob Arctor]

 

Nope, I'm not in a position to invest money offshore. I make use of a pension to avoid tax, and an ISA some years, but that's it.

 

 

Then I stand corrected, sorry.

[tinfoilhat]

But their message was clear and has been proved right over and over again.

They were fundamental in getting the message across to a wider audience, but obviously not wide enough.

 

Unbelievably some people still insist in defending those who are making them poorer. It's not going to stop and very few people will be immune to the effects of this long term. When they are living in a third world country they will wish they'd listened.

 

Balls was their message clear. "oooo bankers and corporations are evil, life isn't fair" as they tapped away on their iPhones, slurping on a Starbucks and offering precisely **** all in alternatives.

 

I can state the blatently obvious without clogging up high streets with tents.

[Cyclone]

No I’m completely correct.

 

Once again ISAs can not be classed the same as aggressive tax avoidance.

 

Your argument is a simplistic dog whistle that pivots around both being legal. I get that but it’s irrelevant. Utterly so.

 

Using ISAs is economically virtuous behaviour. Aggressive tax avoidance is not.

 

We’ve had this same argument over the years, and I’ve had it with umpteen other IT contractors who use offshore tax avoidance schemes. I don’t have a problem with that necessarily. I have a problem with aggressive avoidance.

 

We are not talking about the same thing, not in a million years. Using the ISA argument is lumping ordinary people together with criminals, money launderers and aggressive avoiders. It’s not helpful. In fact it’s insulting.

 

No, the reason we disagree is that you are trying to categorise normal tax avoidance as 'aggressive avoidance', which isn't even a legal or useful characterisation at all.

Investing offshore is not something that HMRC calls aggressive avoidance, or evasion. It's normal behaviour.

And that's why I point out that it's like and ISA. Because both are legal, normal means of avoiding some portion of a tax that would otherwise be due.

 

---------- Post added 11-11-2017 at 09:03 ----------

 

The Queen is cheating Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. The irony hardly needs pointing out.

She isn't. At all, not even in the slightest. Cheating would be evasion.

Although she is unusual in that she only pays taxes voluntarily.

[Anna B]

Balls was their message clear. "oooo bankers and corporations are evil, life isn't fair" as they tapped away on their iPhones, slurping on a Starbucks and offering precisely **** all in alternatives.

 

I can state the blatently obvious without clogging up high streets with tents.

 

You have a short memory.

 

You seem to forget the world was a very different place before the financial crash. 'Greed was Good' remember? Everybody was trying to claw their way up the greasy pole hoping to join the elite at the top, but not realising the deck was stacked and they had almost no chance. There was nothing 'blatantly obvious' about that at the time. People were in the grip of the false belief 'we've never had it so good,' and 'we're all middle class now' etc

 

It was groups like 'Occupy', and various internet 'warriors' who raised awareness, and drew public attention to the goings on of the big Corporations, the banking time bomb etc before the crash, but not enough people were listening. It even seemed to come as a big 'surprise' to Gordon Brown and co... and after the crash so few people understood what had happened that the Tories were able to blame it all on 'the mess the Labour government has got us into....' for years.

 

There were also alternatives put forward, but these threatened the iron grip of the multi-nationals and rampant Capitalism, so they were either derided or quietly ignored and forgotten... That is until Jeremy Corbyn somehow managed to get himself elected as a Labour Leader with new ideas, and proved a real threat to them.

 

People are waking up. For a lot of people 'Occupy' started that process, but while people are still defending the indefensible on threads like this, there's obviously still a long way to go.

[ECCOnoob]

......and all that awareness has changed what exactly.

 

The world is still turning. Life is pretty much exactly the same as before the "2008 crash". People are still driving round in cars. The lights are still on. The internet is still running. The shops are stocked. Consumerism is still rife. We still have shiploads of cheap foreign made tat from exloitative developing nations flooding our discount stores with an equal level of enthused hordes of people lapping up basketfulls of it. Nobody seems to give a toss about the exploitation of how it was made.

 

We still have reasonably cheap standards of living compared to other countries and despite the best efforts of Corbyn, biased media outlets, shock-tactic documentaries and pipedream idealists on internet forums such as this, MOST people (even those at the lowest income levels of society) have at the very least a roof over their heads, a basic income handout from the government and ability to have a basic standard of living.

 

Even our most desprate and destitute of society who may even be on the streets have access to help and services that unfortunate people in the REAL third world could only dream of.

 

Occupy et al achieved nothing.

 

The massive scandals of Apple, Amazon, Barclays, HSBC, Google. The fake tent cities. The violent protests. The smashing of shop windows. The morons ramrading Debenhams and Tesco to get their trainers and cheap flatscrens... We all saw it. We assumed it was supposed to have some kind of point. God only knows what it was though. Free trainers for all?? Justice for those without flatscreen televisions?? Consumerism is wrong init.

 

Anyway, I digress. Even if those so called protestors did have a point, how did they get on.

 

11 months into 2017 and here is just a tiny handful of samples:

 

Amazon - prime subscriptions up to over 80million

Apple - iphoneX release and thousands queue round the block for it

Google - parent company profits increase by 29%

HSBC - profits in one single quarter reach £3.5billion

Barclays - profits rise 40%

 

We all want consumerism. People want things. People want money. People go to work to earn money. People want to spend it.

 

Fairness is not a human nature. We are all cavemen inside.

 

Do we think the Paradise Papers will really shake up the world? I dont. I am still waiting for that revolution that allegedly was supposed to come with the Panama Papers leak. That was over a year ago now.

 

As for recent developments, well you have to laugh dont you....

 

BBC Panorma had the gall to broadcast their finger pointing and person shaming documentary whilst having an employee pension scheme investing multi-millions in the very same "tax avoiding" companies.

 

Chief Corbyn demanding the queen apologise for her links with such disgraceful almost treasonous behaviour whilst having their own party councils using such schemes to offset liabilities on properties and avoiding stamp duties.

 

The swamp is a long way off from being drained. The revolution is a long way off coming despite what faux marxists and wannabe Che Guevaras try to make out.

 

Charlotte Church, Russell Brand, Michael Sheen, Shami Chakrabarti, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Mick Cash and the rest of them are as see through as a freshly cleaned window on a bright day.

 

Capitalism is a failure they chant (....except when we can benefit from it...)

 

Wake me up when something is happening will you. In the interim I am going to do what the majority of the population does. Live my life. Make the best of my life and spend what I can afford when I want, how I want and on whatever I want.

Edited November 11, 2017 by ECCOnoob

[I1L2T3]

......and all that awareness has changed what exactly.

 

The world is still turning. Life is pretty much exactly the same as before the "2008 crash". People are still driving round in cars. The lights are still on. The internet is still running. The shops are stocked. Consumerism is still rife. We still have shiploads of cheap foreign made tat from exloitative developing nations flooding our discount stores with an equal level of enthused hordes of people lapping up basketfulls of it. Nobody seems to give a toss about the exploitation of how it was made.

 

We still have reasonably cheap standards of living compared to other countries and despite the best efforts of Corbyn, biased media outlets, shock-tactic documentaries and pipedream idealists on internet forums such as this, MOST people (even those at the lowest income levels of society) have at the very least a roof over their heads, a basic income handout from the government and ability to have a basic standard of living.

 

Even our most desprate and destitute of society who may even be on the streets have access to help and services that unfortunate people in the REAL third world could only dream of.

 

Occupy et al achieved nothing.

 

The massive scandals of Apple, Amazon, Barclays, HSBC, Google. The fake tent cities. The violent protests. The smashing of shop windows. The morons ramrading Debenhams and Tesco to get their trainers and cheap flatscrens... We all saw it. We assumed it was supposed to have some kind of point. God only knows what it was though. Free trainers for all?? Justice for those without flatscreen televisions?? Consumerism is wrong init.

 

Anyway, I digress. Even if those so called protestors did have a point, how did they get on.

 

11 months into 2017 and here is just a tiny handful of samples:

 

Amazon - prime subscriptions up to over 80million

Apple - iphoneX release and thousands queue round the block for it

Google - parent company profits increase by 29%

HSBC - profits in one single quarter reach £3.5billion

Barclays - profits rise 40%

 

We all want consumerism. People want things. People want money. People go to work to earn money. People want to spend it.

 

Fairness is not a human nature. We are all cavemen inside.

 

Do we think the Paradise Papers will really shake up the world? I dont. I am still waiting for that revolution that allegedly was supposed to come with the Panama Papers leak. That was over a year ago now.

 

As for recent developments, well you have to laugh dont you....

 

BBC Panorma had the gall to broadcast their finger pointing and person shaming documentary whilst having an employee pension scheme investing multi-millions in the very same "tax avoiding" companies.

 

Chief Corbyn demanding the queen apologise for her links with such disgraceful almost treasonous behaviour whilst having their own party councils using such schemes to offset liabilities on properties and avoiding stamp duties.

 

The swamp is a long way off from being drained. The revolution is a long way off coming despite what faux marxists and wannabe Che Guevaras try to make out.

 

Charlotte Church, Russell Brand, Michael Sheen, Shami Chakrabarti, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Mick Cash and the rest of them are as see through as a freshly cleaned window on a bright day.

 

Capitalism is a failure they chant (....except when we can benefit from it...)

 

Wake me up when something is happening will you. In the interim I am going to do what the majority of the population does. Live my life. Make the best of my life and spend what I can afford when I want, how I want and on whatever I want.

 

That’s the most impressive strawman on here for a while. Look everyone let the crooks get away with it because shiny things (every so often) make it all ok.

 

The vast majority of people - and even Corbyn - don’t want to dismantle capitalism. Only those on the far left have that objective and they are a tiny minority.

 

Yes people do want to be consumers, but many also have concerns about the impact of our collective global consumerist behaviour - the impact on people, the impact on the environment, the impact on wealth equality, the impact on personal indebtedness as examples.

 

That is where the crux of the argument is - it’s not about not having capitalist societies but about how unrestrained capitalism should be allowed to be. And that is where the Panama and Parafise papers feature as they are representative of the very worst excesses of capitalism. They represent a very significant facet of the way that global wealth and ownership of capital is being concentrated into the hands of the few.

[Anna B]

......and all that awareness has changed what exactly.

 

The world is still turning. Life is pretty much exactly the same as before the "2008 crash". People are still driving round in cars. The lights are still on. The internet is still running. The shops are stocked. Consumerism is still rife. We still have shiploads of cheap foreign made tat from exloitative developing nations flooding our discount stores with an equal level of enthused hordes of people lapping up basketfulls of it. Nobody seems to give a toss about the exploitation of how it was made.

 

We still have reasonably cheap standards of living compared to other countries and despite the best efforts of Corbyn, biased media outlets, shock-tactic documentaries and pipedream idealists on internet forums such as this, MOST people (even those at the lowest income levels of society) have at the very least a roof over their heads, a basic income handout from the government and ability to have a basic standard of living.

 

Even our most desprate and destitute of society who may even be on the streets have access to help and services that unfortunate people in the REAL third world could only dream of.

 

Occupy et al achieved nothing.

 

The massive scandals of Apple, Amazon, Barclays, HSBC, Google. The fake tent cities. The violent protests. The smashing of shop windows. The morons ramrading Debenhams and Tesco to get their trainers and cheap flatscrens... We all saw it. We assumed it was supposed to have some kind of point. God only knows what it was though. Free trainers for all?? Justice for those without flatscreen televisions?? Consumerism is wrong init.

 

Anyway, I digress. Even if those so called protestors did have a point, how did they get on.

 

11 months into 2017 and here is just a tiny handful of samples:

 

Amazon - prime subscriptions up to over 80million

Apple - iphoneX release and thousands queue round the block for it

Google - parent company profits increase by 29%

HSBC - profits in one single quarter reach £3.5billion

Barclays - profits rise 40%

 

We all want consumerism. People want things. People want money. People go to work to earn money. People want to spend it.

 

Fairness is not a human nature. We are all cavemen inside.

 

Do we think the Paradise Papers will really shake up the world? I dont. I am still waiting for that revolution that allegedly was supposed to come with the Panama Papers leak. That was over a year ago now.

 

As for recent developments, well you have to laugh dont you....

 

BBC Panorma had the gall to broadcast their finger pointing and person shaming documentary whilst having an employee pension scheme investing multi-millions in the very same "tax avoiding" companies.

 

Chief Corbyn demanding the queen apologise for her links with such disgraceful almost treasonous behaviour whilst having their own party councils using such schemes to offset liabilities on properties and avoiding stamp duties.

 

The swamp is a long way off from being drained. The revolution is a long way off coming despite what faux marxists and wannabe Che Guevaras try to make out.

 

Charlotte Church, Russell Brand, Michael Sheen, Shami Chakrabarti, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Mick Cash and the rest of them are as see through as a freshly cleaned window on a bright day.

 

Capitalism is a failure they chant (....except when we can benefit from it...)

 

Wake me up when something is happening will you. In the interim I am going to do what the majority of the population does. Live my life. Make the best of my life and spend what I can afford when I want, how I want and on whatever I want.

 

There is so much wrong with your post, I hardly know where to start...

 

Let's be kind and just call it naive shall we?

 

How long have you been going around with your eyes and ears shut?

 

Do you not wonder why Corbyn's popularity has soared? Do you not wonder why Trump is in power in America? Or why there has been a rise in the far right all over the EU or why we have elected to leave the EU? Politics are all over the place.

 

Much of this is a result of the discontent following the crash and the rising awareness that all is not as it should be, and the awareness that the 'democracy' we have been fed is a sham. Never mind the riots and protests, (of which there have been many, but kept off the mainstream media - the Revolution will not be Televised...,) Politics in general are in turmoil as people cast about for representation and solutions, and it's not about to get any better any time soon. This revolution is a slow burn but will reach a tipping point as more and more people are sucked in, at the moment it has barely begun. I don't know what you do for a living, but no jobs, no incomes, are safe anymore, and that 'help and support' you happily mention is being withdrawn as we speak due to cuts.

 

If you really think life is carrying on just as it was before, then you really need to get out more, widen your circle of aquaintences, engage your brain and try to see beneath the surface.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Anna B

[monkey104]

......and all that awareness has changed what exactly.

 

The world is still turning. Life is pretty much exactly the same as before the "2008 crash". People are still driving round in cars. The lights are still on. The internet is still running. The shops are stocked. Consumerism is still rife. We still have shiploads of cheap foreign made tat from exloitative developing nations flooding our discount stores with an equal level of enthused hordes of people lapping up basketfulls of it. Nobody seems to give a toss about the exploitation of how it was made.

 

We still have reasonably cheap standards of living compared to other countries and despite the best efforts of Corbyn, biased media outlets, shock-tactic documentaries and pipedream idealists on internet forums such as this, MOST people (even those at the lowest income levels of society) have at the very least a roof over their heads, a basic income handout from the government and ability to have a basic standard of living.

 

Even our most desprate and destitute of society who may even be on the streets have access to help and services that unfortunate people in the REAL third world could only dream of.

 

Occupy et al achieved nothing.

 

The massive scandals of Apple, Amazon, Barclays, HSBC, Google. The fake tent cities. The violent protests. The smashing of shop windows. The morons ramrading Debenhams and Tesco to get their trainers and cheap flatscrens... We all saw it. We assumed it was supposed to have some kind of point. God only knows what it was though. Free trainers for all?? Justice for those without flatscreen televisions?? Consumerism is wrong init.

 

Anyway, I digress. Even if those so called protestors did have a point, how did they get on.

 

11 months into 2017 and here is just a tiny handful of samples:

 

Amazon - prime subscriptions up to over 80million

Apple - iphoneX release and thousands queue round the block for it

Google - parent company profits increase by 29%

HSBC - profits in one single quarter reach £3.5billion

Barclays - profits rise 40%

 

We all want consumerism. People want things. People want money. People go to work to earn money. People want to spend it.

 

Fairness is not a human nature. We are all cavemen inside.

 

Do we think the Paradise Papers will really shake up the world? I dont. I am still waiting for that revolution that allegedly was supposed to come with the Panama Papers leak. That was over a year ago now.

 

As for recent developments, well you have to laugh dont you....

 

BBC Panorma had the gall to broadcast their finger pointing and person shaming documentary whilst having an employee pension scheme investing multi-millions in the very same "tax avoiding" companies.

 

Chief Corbyn demanding the queen apologise for her links with such disgraceful almost treasonous behaviour whilst having their own party councils using such schemes to offset liabilities on properties and avoiding stamp duties.

 

The swamp is a long way off from being drained. The revolution is a long way off coming despite what faux marxists and wannabe Che Guevaras try to make out.

 

Charlotte Church, Russell Brand, Michael Sheen, Shami Chakrabarti, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Mick Cash and the rest of them are as see through as a freshly cleaned window on a bright day.

 

Capitalism is a failure they chant (....except when we can benefit from it...)

 

Wake me up when something is happening will you. In the interim I am going to do what the majority of the population does. Live my life. Make the best of my life and spend what I can afford when I want, how I want and on whatever I want.

 

That is the best thing I have read on this thread.

We go to work, earn money, we live life. Nothing has changed in my 55 years.

And despite all the hand wringing, teeth gnashing hair pulling nothing will change in the next 55 years.

Edited November 12, 2017 by monkey104