Proper pay for carers?

[tinfoilhat]

But care has to be paid for. And that can be a disaster for the family. It can all but bankrupt them. The cared for person has to have a sponsor to guarantee the carehome fee. If the cared for person has no money, the state will only contribute about £400 towards fees but the fees are usually at least £600 a week minimum. The sponsor (carer) has to find the other £200 a week. Yes, the carer can refuse to pay, but then the home can refuse to take them. Stalemate.

 

If you do pay the fees but your money runs out, the home can insist the cared for person leaves the home. The council then has to find them a place in a council home (And most have been sold to private companies) anywhere they can, and that might be at the other end of the country.

 

If I'm wrong in this I'd love to hear it, but this is what I've read, and heard from clients.

 

Anna, how many homeless dementia sufferers do you know? What you're saying simply isn't true. They may be moved from a home that costs less than the current one (which I agree isn't fair) and they won't move from one council to another purely in the grounds of cost - I'd be surprised if you can find any example of that. It's not unthinkable they could be moved from one end of a borough to another if there isn't anywhere immediately local at a price social services will pay, but not across the country. Unscrupulous councils would just dump old people wholesale somewhere cheaper if that was the case!

[Jomie]

Anna - family cannot be made to top up for care - link.

There is no legal requirement for friends, family members or anybody else to agree to pay a third-party top-up and therefore the decision to meet this cost is a voluntary one.

When savings are down to £23,250 and they are no longer self funding they can move the person to a cheaper home though.

I doubt very much whether the state would bankrupt anyone. They will only take into account the assets of the person who needs care. Problems can arise in respect of property, for instance if someone under 60 is living there but that would only require them to find a new home, not provide funds for care. If the person is in need of nursing care their fees are paid by the NHS.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Jomie

[Anna B]

Anna - family cannot be made to top up for care - link.

 

When savings are down to £23,250 and they are no longer self funding they can move the person to a cheaper home though.

I doubt very much whether the state would bankrupt anyone. They will only take into account the assets of the person who needs care. Problems can arise in respect of property, for instance if someone under 60 is living there but that would only require them to find a new home, not provide funds for care. If the person is in need of nursing care their fees are paid by the NHS.

Except that Dementia in all its forms is not considered to be an illness therefore the NHS are not required to pay.

 

Re: the £23,250, There is a difference between what is written down in law and what happens in practice. You'll find there are any number of people trying to reclaim the £23,000 because they didn't know about it, and the care home didn't tell them.

 

I haven't checked out your link yet. but I will. And if it's correct I'll be delighted. Things must have changed because a relative of mine tried to get her mother into several carehomes but they all had the sponsorship clause. This was about 2 years ago.

_________________________________________________________________________

 

Mmm..... Just read your link. Thanks for that. I must say it's a bit ambiguous to say the least. The first paragraph seems to be contradicted by everything that follows. Also seems to be referring to council run homes of which there seem to be very few these days. The sponsorship clause wasn't there, but I think that was probably in the carehomes actual contract. Call me cynical, but I think a lot of these things are meant to be confusing, or are just badly written. Best case scenario: Maybe the tide is turning and some court has changed things a bit. We can but hope.

 

Anyway, thanks again for the link.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Anna B

[tinfoilhat]

[/b]

Except that Dementia in all its forms is not considered to be an illness therefore the NHS are not required to pay.

 

Re: the £23,250, There is a difference between what is written down in law and what happens in practice. You'll find there are any number of people trying to reclaim the £23,000 because they didn't know about it, and the care home didn't tell them.

 

I haven't checked out your link yet. but I will. And if it's correct I'll be delighted. Things must have changed because a relative of mine tried to get her mother into several carehomes but they all had the sponsorship clause. This was about 2 years ago.

 

Then they should be taking the council to court and I'd at the very least go to the press. The council go through finances with a fine tooth comb. And more often than not, unless it's all self funded, social services get the ball rolling or did.

 

Was your relative looking at homes that cost more than the council would pay? Whilst there will almost certainly be homes that fit underneath (or more likely bang on) that figure, they vary in price. We decided to fork out the extra for my dad but also had to say effectivly if mothers money ran out we had to pay or he was out to somewhere cheaper that the council would have funded in its entirety. Capitalism writ large. We were happy to pay - option b was a cheaper home and the fussy so and so wouldn't have liked it.

[Annie Bynnol]

[/b]

Except that Dementia in all its forms is not considered to be an illness therefore the NHS are not required to pay.

.

 

A diagnosis of Dementia does not secure NHS funding but an individual who requires nursing care because of the effects of their dementia and other needs can get a 'NHS continuing healthcare plan' which required 'NHS funded nursing care'. This is not means tested.

In practice a checklist of the following is graded ABC:

Behaviour

Cognition

Psychology/emotion

Communication

Nutrition

Mobility

Continence

Skin integrity

Breathing

Medication/therapy

Altered states of consciousness

 

Not all have to be at the highest grade- I think only five.

 

NHS continuing healthcare

 

Specific Guidance:

National framework for NHS continuing healthcare and NHS funded nursing care here

[Anna B]

A diagnosis of Dementia does not secure NHS funding but an individual who requires nursing care because of the effects of their dementia and other needs can get a 'NHS continuing healthcare plan' which required 'NHS funded nursing care'. This is not means tested.

In practice a checklist of the following is graded ABC:

Behaviour

Cognition

Psychology/emotion

Communication

Nutrition

Mobility

Continence

Skin integrity

Breathing

Medication/therapy

Altered states of consciousness

 

Not all have to be at the highest grade- I think only five.

 

NHS continuing healthcare

 

Specific Guidance:

National framework for NHS continuing healthcare and NHS funded nursing care here

 

Interesting.

 

Is nursing care separated out from general living care, ie. is it just the difference that is paid between the cost of a nursing home and the cost of a Residential home?

[tinfoilhat]

A diagnosis of Dementia does not secure NHS funding but an individual who requires nursing care because of the effects of their dementia and other needs can get a 'NHS continuing healthcare plan' which required 'NHS funded nursing care'. This is not means tested.

In practice a checklist of the following is graded ABC:

Behaviour

Cognition

Psychology/emotion

Communication

Nutrition

Mobility

Continence

Skin integrity

Breathing

Medication/therapy

Altered states of consciousness

 

Not all have to be at the highest grade- I think only five.

 

NHS continuing healthcare

 

Specific Guidance:

National framework for NHS continuing healthcare and NHS funded nursing care here

 

It's very very rare that gets awarded for dementia in my limited experience.

[Anna B]

Then they should be taking the council to court and I'd at the very least go to the press. The council go through finances with a fine tooth comb. And more often than not, unless it's all self funded, social services get the ball rolling or did.

 

Was your relative looking at homes that cost more than the council would pay? Whilst there will almost certainly be homes that fit underneath (or more likely bang on) that figure, they vary in price. We decided to fork out the extra for my dad but also had to say effectivly if mothers money ran out we had to pay or he was out to somewhere cheaper that the council would have funded in its entirety. Capitalism writ large. We were happy to pay - option b was a cheaper home and the fussy so and so wouldn't have liked it.

 

There have been several court cases in the papers of people taking the care homes to court to recover this money.

 

Last time I looked, (about 2 years ago) I never found a care home that cost less or the same as the council's funding of approx £420 per week towards care (a bit more for nursing care.) All council care homes were in the process of being privatised in Sheffield, and all the ones I looked at (nothing fancy) were now private, in the £550 to £600 mark and above. I don't think they come any cheaperthan this, but if anyone knows of one then I'd be interested to hear of it.

(Then I believe some charge extra for 'bed and board' on top, but I've never been sure about this.)

 

I think your comments about having to move your dad but deciding to pay extra instead is kind, and a fairly typical reaction. Unfortunately I think it smacks of emotional blackmail on the part of the home.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Anna B

[Jomie]

It's interesting that a thread about financial rewards for carers has changed direction to the funding of care homes. This is not surprising - carers usually get sidelined. They quietly get on with the job, very often with little or no support.

 

If support is offered by social services, they have to pay for it. I do not know the current funding situation but I have heard that there are moves afoot to take the disabled person's assets into account, much the same as it is at present when they go into a care home. If the carer lives with the disabled person and receives help in the form of visiting professional carers, they have to suffer the intrusion of someone entering their home, sometimes several times a day. Their time is therefore dominated by the needs of not only the caree but the care staff. The carer can never settle down and have time to themselves - they are always clock watching.

 

I don't think that increasing the carers allowance is key to keeping people at home. We need to think out of the box and formulate different, and appropriate types of support. It will, of course take funding and at the moment that won't be forthcoming because the carers just quietly carry on until they are so ill and exhausted that their charge has to go into care.

 

Families and friends should also be willing to offer support to carers. Unfortunately some people don't want to get involved, making various excuses (or none) and may simply disappear.

[tinfoilhat]

There have been several court cases in the papers of people taking the care homes to court to recover this money.

 

Last time I looked, (about 2 years ago) I never found a care home that cost less or the same as the council's funding of approx £420 per week towards care (a bit more for nursing care.) All council care homes were in the process of being privatised in Sheffield, and all the ones I looked at (nothing fancy) were now private, in the £550 to £600 mark and above. I don't think they come any cheaperthan this, but if anyone knows of one then I'd be interested to hear of it.

(Then I believe some charge extra for 'bed and board' on top, but I've never been sure about this.)

 

I think your comments about having to move your dad but deciding to pay extra instead is kind, and a fairly typical reaction. Unfortunately I think it smacks of emotional blackmail on the part of the home.

 

It wasn't emotional blackmail, it was just nicer. It's like spending your final days in a nicer hotel or a Travelodge. And one we looked at, a new build, nice building reminded me exactly of a Travelodge. It was nice enough but soulless. It's also how it's run, where it's located, who runs it - like pretty much everything else in life.

 

I can't speak for SCC - they are a law unto themselves. But there were homes across the border, both nursing and residential which were on budget. The quality varied hugely and CQC site was fairly useless. But they were out there.

 

---------- Post added 04-02-2018 at 07:38 ----------

 

It's interesting that a thread about financial rewards for carers has changed direction to the funding of care homes. This is not surprising - carers usually get sidelined. They quietly get on with the job, very often with little or no support.

 

If support is offered by social services, they have to pay for it. I do not know the current funding situation but I have heard that there are moves afoot to take the disabled person's assets into account, much the same as it is at present when they go into a care home. If the carer lives with the disabled person and receives help in the form of visiting professional carers, they have to suffer the intrusion of someone entering their home, sometimes several times a day. Their time is therefore dominated by the needs of not only the caree but the care staff. The carer can never settle down and have time to themselves - they are always clock watching.

 

I don't think that increasing the carers allowance is key to keeping people at home. We need to think out of the box and formulate different, and appropriate types of support. It will, of course take funding and at the moment that won't be forthcoming because the carers just quietly carry on until they are so ill and exhausted that their charge has to go into care.

 

Families and friends should also be willing to offer support to carers. Unfortunately some people don't want to get involved, making various excuses (or none) and may simply disappear.

 

I don't disagree with any of that. Family and friends should help, but dementia is a horrible disease to go through and sadly often go through for a long time. You can offer a certain amount of support to a carer but, as you rightly point out, their time is totally consumed by the person they're looking after. Take said carer out for a coffee or a meal or something - sure. Roll my sleeves up and become an additional carer? I'm not sure I'd want to or if I could.