A question for believers, is God a gas?

[GhostRiders]

On 16/07/2023 at 10:07, ThaBoom said:

Er, yes you/ they do.

 

No one believes something can come into existence/ being out of NOTHING.  By nothing I mean zero, zilch, no mass, atoms, neutrons, matter etc

 

If you walked into your garden and it was beautifully landscaped, flowing fountain, everything arranged to perfection- you won't accept this happened by itself- especially if you last saw it it was a mess and chaotic. 

 

As for the 2nd point, believers in God believe God is the 'something'. The Universe began to exist-

 

1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause.

2. The Universe began to exist

3. Therefore the Universe has a cause.

 

Note, I'm not saying "Whatever begins has a cause- but whatever begins to exist has/ needs a cause.

 

Theists accept and believe God has no beginning, . Something has to exist as the first cause. You cannot have a infinite regress of finite causes.

 

So God created the universe out of nothing- because He can.

 

I know these type of threads drag on plus there's a dozen like these floating in here- so excuse me if I don't return to this- as I really believe these types of debate cannot be had on a forum! I've seen it myself 1-1. You put an atheist in a room with a theist- and throw those questions you ask, or the theist asks you explain 'how Something can come from nothing ' then I've seen atheists fall apart.

'Er, yes you/ they do'

 

No I don't.

 

Beginning a response with a strawman isn't the best way to represent yourself.

 

'No one believes something can come into existence/ being out of NOTHING.  By nothing I mean zero, zilch, no mass, atoms, neutrons, matter etc'

 

I agree that atheists don't think that the universe came out of nothing.

 

'If you walked into your garden and it was beautifully landscaped, flowing fountain, everything arranged to perfection- you won't accept this happened by itself- especially if you last saw it it was a mess and chaotic'

 

Correct, but we're not talking about a well manicured garden.

 

'As for the 2nd point, believers in God believe God is the 'something'. The Universe began to exist-'

 

Aaah but you also believe that the universe was formed out of nothing.

 

You see, either God created it from something - in which case your following Kalam argument is useless - or he created it from nothing - in which case you believe the very thing you're strawmanning Atheists about.

 

Which is it? Did God create the universe from pre existing material or from nothing in your view?

 

'As for the 2nd point, believers in God believe God is the 'something'.'

 

But that's not what's being argued. The argument is that the universe can't come from nothing (hence why you strawmanned me at the beginning of your response)

 

God isn't the 'something' because he isn't the material from which the universe came - as previously stated the universe (for the sake of argument let's say God made it) was either formed by God from a pre existing material or from nothing. God isn't the 'something' in this case - at best he manipulated the something, but this has to be established AND shown as a necessary cause.

 

'The Universe began to exist-'

 

Do we really have to go through a thousand year old oft debunked argument?'

 

'1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause.

 

2. The Universe began to exist

 

3. Therefore the Universe has a cause.

 

 

 

Note, I'm not saying "Whatever begins has a cause- but whatever begins to exist has/ needs a cause'

 

I know what you're saying.

 

Premise one and two don't follow because the things that begin to exist in P1 are contingent on other contingent things, the thing that begins to exist in premise 2 are not contingent on other contingent things (I'm being generous here and granting God) therefore the argument isn't valid.

 

That's not the only thing wrong with it but for brevity I'm just using that as we don't need to go any further. Learn some philosophy and stop copying crap apologists.

 

 

'Theists accept and believe God has no beginning, . Something has to exist as the first cause'

 

No it doesn't, and even if it did it doesn't have to be God.

 

'You cannot have a infinite regress of finite causes'

 

Yes you can. Note, I'm not saying that there is, I'm saying that you can.

 

'So God created the universe out of nothing- because He can'

 

So you admit that it's you, and not Atheists who think that the universe came from nothing.

 

'I know these type of threads drag on plus there's a dozen like these floating in here- so excuse me if I don't return to this- as I really believe these types of debate cannot be had on a forum!'

 

No problem, I'm the producer and host of a call in show that has these conversations so if you're more comfortable calling in feel free.

 

'I've seen it myself 1-1. You put an atheist in a room with a theist- and throw those questions you ask, or the theist asks you explain 'how Something can come from nothing ' then I've seen atheists fall apart'

 

From those questions/answers you've given? I doubt it.  Which atheists have you been talking to? Pre school children?

[trastrick]

What do we really know about this god? Let's take him at his word.

 

According to reports, he created man in his own image. So we know what he looks like.

 

Male, has all the evolved characteristics of a great ape., complete with the hair and genitalia. He eats, sleeps, and has sex, Has a son.

 

I am a "jealous" god he sez. and "thou shalt have no other gods, before me".

 

Other gods?

 

Oh yeah, he has a rival, Satan. So who's in charge here?

 

Pick one! 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by trastrick