''The war on men''

[Michael_W]

You're labouring under a misapprehension.

It's not 'her' time to share. It's their time to share from the start. Shared parental leave. Not 'Maternity leave that can be shared with father'.

 

I only know of a few cases to draw on anecdotes, but honestly they seem more than happy to be back at work rather than at home with a screaming baby.

 

---------- Post added 13-03-2018 at 21:48 ----------

 

You don't seem to have an opinion, you just want to attack me.

Perhaps if you spent less time attacking me and shared your own opinion there might be something to discuss, like why your anecdotes aren't data perhaps...

You've made that up, aka lied. I never mentioned selfish mothers or poor dads.

 

Ah yes, I think we've already established that you're right wing, reactionary and old, presumably that explains a lot of your opinions.

 

So I just want to attack you, yet you are the one who started with the age /education based put downs in earlier exchanges, and now I'm a right wing, reactionary, old ranting misogynist, as well as having allegedly lied ..... really

 

I will admit to getting old and I am a bit right wing, but please don't tell me I have lied when the words 'selfish mothers' and 'poor dads' were indeed posted by you, not me, it's there in black and white go back and read for yourself ! Post #205

My anecdotes are not data again your right, but your links/'data' is driven by an agenda of identity politics, if you can try to claim the high ground in discussions because I am old and uneducated then surely I can counter that stance with references to my experience, and that is what I have done. (Do I need to post links to more educated opinion like Jordan Peterson to back up my views )

I don't need to read agenda driven stuff when I know many people personally (my family included) over many years, who have not shared leave for common sense reasons, not machismo ones, and it has neither damaged or restrained anything within their relationships personally or at work, so in my opinion fella I'm right and your wrong

Edited March 13, 2018 by Michael_W

[Cyclone]

Post #183, no opinion from you, no information, no rebuttal, not even an attack on what I'd said, just an attack on me.

 

And you can't see when something is a question? (Hint, that's a question)

 

How couples decide between them is of course up to them, but are you suggesting that it's the selfish mothers who won't let the dads share leave, and these poor dads end up with no choice.

And that's also a question, asking in fact if selfish mothers was the implication.

I did use the words though, but instead of answering the question you asked where I got the nonsense from.

I got it from you saying this

there are plenty of women that choose to be the ones who take leave, so pinning it squarely on macho culture is just the sort of liberal nonsense I would expect from certain people

Where you said that it's the women who choose to take the leave... Your implication, which I questioned, and which you didn't answer, but instead got outraged about.

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2018 at 10:21 ----------

 

S

My anecdotes are not data again your right, but your links/'data' is driven by an agenda of identity politics, if you can try to claim the high ground in discussions because I am old and uneducated then surely I can counter that stance with references to my experience, and that is what I have done. (Do I need to post links to more educated opinion like Jordan Peterson to back up my views )

I don't need to read agenda driven stuff when I know many people personally (my family included) over many years, who have not shared leave for common sense reasons, not machismo ones, and it has neither damaged or restrained anything within their relationships personally or at work, so in my opinion fella I'm right and your wrong

 

I don't claim any high ground, nor am I interested in your level of education or my own.

If you want to make a point that is related to the discussion, instead of just attacking me whenever I post something, then feel free to engage in discussion. Polite discussions are the best kind on the forum. These tit for tat, exchanges are tedious and boring.

You know people who haven't shared leave, which was only introduced in the last few years... (2015 exactly), so unless you're family have all been having children in the last 3 years, you won't know that many...

And the people that you might know in that timeframe have most likely not discussed their sharing arrangements and thoughts with you.

The fact that you say "over many years" suggests that you've no idea when shared leave was introduced, and so your opinion is most likely based on erroneous assumptions.

 

On the other hand, the DSS and other groups who have looked at the takeup have seen that it is extremely low (1 - 3 %) and when questioned about it men answer that they don't like to ask for time off work.

It's a new thing, it's not expected of men, it's not traditional.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Cyclone

[Andbreathe]

so your opinion is most likely based on erroneous assumptions.

 

.

 

Be gentle on him...after all he is only a bit right wing...

[Michael_W]

Post #183, no opinion from you, no information, no rebuttal, not even an attack on what I'd said, just an attack on me.

 

And you can't see when something is a question? (Hint, that's a question)

 

 

And that's also a question, asking in fact if selfish mothers was the implication.

I did use the words though, but instead of answering the question you asked where I got the nonsense from.

I got it from you saying this

 

Where you said that it's the women who choose to take the leave... Your implication, which I questioned, and which you didn't answer, but instead got outraged about.

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2018 at 10:21 ----------

 

 

I don't claim any high ground, nor am I interested in your level of education or my own.

If you want to make a point that is related to the discussion, instead of just attacking me whenever I post something, then feel free to engage in discussion. Polite discussions are the best kind on the forum. These tit for tat, exchanges are tedious and boring.

You know people who haven't shared leave, which was only introduced in the last few years... (2015 exactly), so unless you're family have all been having children in the last 3 years, you won't know that many...

And the people that you might know in that timeframe have most likely not discussed their sharing arrangements and thoughts with you.

The fact that you say "over many years" suggests that you've no idea when shared leave was introduced, and so your opinion is most likely based on erroneous assumptions.

 

On the other hand, the DSS and other groups who have looked at the takeup have seen that it is extremely low (1 - 3 %) and when questioned about it men answer that they don't like to ask for time off work.

It's a new thing, it's not expected of men, it's not traditional.

 

Yes round and round we go, what you don't seem to understand is that opinion is what most people give on a discussion forum, if I want to read leftist agenda driven nonsense I can go to the various media outlets that drive it, as it seems you do.

So what is your problem ?

I have different views and opinions to you based on my experience regardless of how long shared leave has been available and how much uptake there is for alleged machismo reasons, is that too hard for you to understand ?

Where is your back up information regarding the alleged 'damaging and restraining' issue you post about ?

You keep posting about take up from data (you have read) then base part of one argument with barleycorn on your own anecdotes. If you don't like being attacked (as you call it) then don't be so keen to attack yourself, your age and education, your use of the isms and other put downs go back further than this thread and it's one that you and a few others often use.

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2018 at 11:06 ----------

 

Be gentle on him...after all he is only a bit right wing...

 

He seems to be the one needing gentleness, I am just responding in kind, anything to add

 

It's quite ironic, on a thread titled 'The war on men', that those who claim there is not one are actually implying that there is in their posts.

Men don't take up their share of leave is the mantra, regardless of the reasons, and they will have reasons whether it's their own choice or the mothers choice or a combined choice, whether it's machismo, common sense or maybe just financial sense.

The leftist approach is it's the man who is somehow at fault nonetheless, well men have choices too, as do women of course, there is lot to be said about traditional roles and there is no reason why if people choose they can't or won't be maintained, you wouldn't send your wife up a ladder if you had the choice ...... would you

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2018 at 11:47 ----------

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2018 at 11:06 ----------

 

It's also interesting that some modern feminists would dismiss Cyclones approach to the subject, possibly, by using his white male privilege to patronise.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Michael_W

[Andbreathe]

 

you wouldn't send your wife up a ladder if you had the choice ...... would you .

 

If I had the choice?? My partner is quite capable of making her own choices..and yes, she’s a dab hand at climbing ladders..I take it you make choices for yours then?..

 

Btw...she can even use a drill.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Andbreathe

[Cyclone]

Yes round and round we go, what you don't seem to understand is that opinion is what most people give on a discussion forum, if I want to read leftist agenda driven nonsense I can go to the various media outlets that drive it, as it seems you do.

So what is your problem ?

I have different views and opinions to you based on my experience regardless of how long shared leave has been available

Okay, so are you basing your opinion on RELEVANT anecdotes? You claimed it was 'over the years' when instead it should be over <3 years.

and how much uptake there is for alleged machismo reasons, is that too hard for you to understand ?

No, it's hard to understand the basis for your opinion as it seems to be based on assumptions and bile.

Where is your back up information regarding the alleged 'damaging and restraining' issue you post about ?

I posted the link to the BBC article.

Perhaps the BBC is to 'leftwing propaganda' for you?

You keep posting about take up from data (you have read) then base part of one argument with barleycorn on your own anecdotes. If you don't like being attacked (as you call it) then don't be so keen to attack yourself, your age and education, your use of the isms and other put downs go back further than this thread and it's one that you and a few others often use.

Can you get over it and address the point in hand, shared leave DOES exist, and the takeup is <3% perhaps as low as 1%.

 

It's quite ironic, on a thread titled 'The war on men', that those who claim there is not one are actually implying that there is in their posts.

Nope, it's another example of there not being a war on men. There is however a cultural problem that still needs to be overcome.

Men don't take up their share of leave is the mantra

No, that's just a fact

regardless of the reasons, and they will have reasons whether it's their own choice or the mothers choice or a combined choice, whether it's machismo, common sense or maybe just financial sense.

The leftist approach is it's the man who is somehow at fault nonetheless, well men have choices too, as do women of course, there is lot to be said about traditional roles and there is no reason why if people choose they can't or won't be maintained, you wouldn't send your wife up a ladder if you had the choice ...... would you

You've missed the point entirely. Men are affected by culture, that doesn't make them to blame for being affected.

But this branch of the discussion was entirely about the claim that maternity/paternity are not equal. Shared leave is an example of a move towards equalisation, but machismo and culture hold back the take up of that leave.

 

The idea that you can 'send your wife' up a ladder paints you as part of the problem in this picture. Are you not capable of deciding things between you? Or is it that you assume that a man is automatically better at climbing ladders for some reason, does your wife not have legs, arms and hands? What is it that makes all men with wives automatically more qualified?

You know female firefighters exist right, do you imagine that their husbands wouldn't conclude that perhaps they are more experienced at the use of ladders and better suited to some job involving climbing a ladder?

[Michael_W]

If I had the choice?? My partner is quite capable of making her own choices..and yes, she’s a dab hand at climbing ladders..I take it you make choices for yours then?..

 

Btw...she can even use a drill.

 

I don't make any choices for anybody capable of making their own, never have never will, so I'm sorry to disappoint your conclusion jumped opinion as you're way off the mark there.

Your missing my point, I thought you would it was a bit of a parody, just to clarify, what I am saying is you would not say to your wife 'narthen Doris your turn to clean t'gutter love get thisen up', instead you would make a choice between yourselves if that's how you deal with sharing chores in your house, and if she was happy to go up and clean the gutter, that's fine ..... her choice.

However, here's the cut, 'traditionally' not many women do ladder work, I'm not saying they shouldn't or can't, I'm saying they don't ..... just like men don't take much shared leave, the reasons are there whether leftist ideology agrees with it or not

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2018 at 23:48 ----------

 

Okay, so are you basing your opinion on RELEVANT anecdotes? You claimed it was 'over the years' when instead it should be over <3 years.

No, it's hard to understand the basis for your opinion as it seems to be based on assumptions and bile.

I posted the link to the BBC article.

Perhaps the BBC is to 'leftwing propaganda' for you?

Can you get over it and address the point in hand, shared leave DOES exist, and the takeup is <3% perhaps as low as 1%.

Nope, it's another example of there not being a war on men. There is however a cultural problem that still needs to be overcome.

No, that's just a fact

You've missed the point entirely. Men are affected by culture, that doesn't make them to blame for being affected.

But this branch of the discussion was entirely about the claim that maternity/paternity are not equal. Shared leave is an example of a move towards equalisation, but machismo and culture hold back the take up of that leave.

 

The idea that you can 'send your wife' up a ladder paints you as part of the problem in this picture. Are you not capable of deciding things between you? Or is it that you assume that a man is automatically better at climbing ladders for some reason, does your wife not have legs, arms and hands? What is it that makes all men with wives automatically more qualified?

You know female firefighters exist right, do you imagine that their husbands wouldn't conclude that perhaps they are more experienced at the use of ladders and better suited to some job involving climbing a ladder?

 

Oh dear your hard work lad, I think my wife would have no problem doing anything, however I would never have asked her to do ladder work knowing I can do it myself, and she would probably never have expected me to share leave with the children had it been available back then, but that's how we were and to a certain degree still are. I know all about female firefighters too btw, I know a couple. So just to conclude, how many women do ladder work compared to men and do you think it will ever be shared, you know, more women uptake their share

 

Assumptions and bile ..... another strange one

The BBC is full of leftist propaganda that is true.

I have not said that shared leave does not exist, I said there were reasons it did not get equal uptake, and you have concurred, however in that socialist la la land you dream of maybe one day it will happen, but why should people like you insist that for things to be more equal it does ?

 

There is a war on men because there is a war on male culture ?

Because people like you believe there should be no machismo !

Edited March 14, 2018 by Michael_W

[Andbreathe]

I don't make any choices for anybody capable of making their own, never have never will, so I'm sorry to disappoint your conclusion jumped opinion as you're way off the mark there.

Your missing my point, I thought you would it was a bit of a parody, just to clarify, what I am saying is you would not say to your wife 'narthen Doris your turn to clean t'gutter love get thisen up', instead you would make a choice between yourselves if that's how you deal with sharing chores in your house, and if she was happy to go up and clean the gutter, that's fine ..... her choice.

However, here's the cut, 'traditionally' not many women do ladder work, I'm not saying they shouldn't or can't, I'm saying they don't ..... just like men don't take much shared leave, the reasons are there whether leftist ideology agrees with it or not [

 

You step in dung with one foot and return to step in more with the other... priceless

[Cyclone]

Michael

You didn't talk about 'asking' you said "you wouldn't send your wife up a ladder if you had the choice ...... would you"

I don't get to "send" my wife anywhere, I don't own her nor am I her boss.

I think this is indicative of your attitude.

 

But you wanted to make a point that men don't 'traditionally' take much shared leave.

 

How can there be a tradition? Shared leave has existed for THREE years. A fact that you didn't know when you were talking about your vast experience of the subject and criticising the fact that I'd only read about it!

 

I've no idea why you think an equal sharing of leave on average is some kind of socialist dream, perhaps you should check the definition of socialism.

Why should people like me insist that for things to be more equal it should be taken up? I haven't. You started this argument when I pointed out that shared leave existed and provided the opportunity for equal leave between men and women.

Maternity leave was being raised as an example of the "war on men", something that men didn't get. It's not true though anymore, equality cuts both ways and maternity/paternity has had moves to make it more equal recently. You then wanted to argue about it, despite apparently knowing nothing about it yourself.

 

You don't seem to really understand what I've said about machismo either, here, have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and sociology to describe certain traditional male norms of behavior in the United States and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Such "toxic" masculine norms include the traits of dominance, devaluation of women, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of emotions.

 

Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and the stifling of emotions, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse.

 

The socialization of boys often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken code of behavior among men in American prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.

 

"Toxic" masculine traits are contrasted with more traditionally positive masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family. The concept of toxic masculinity was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement in contrast to a "real" or "deep" masculinity that they say men have lost touch with in modern society.

[Michael_W]

You step in dung with one foot and return to step in more with the other... priceless

 

Ah very insightful, try a bit harder and maybe you will get to go up the ladders yourself next time

 

---------- Post added 15-03-2018 at 10:31 ----------

 

Michael

You didn't talk about 'asking' you said "you wouldn't send your wife up a ladder if you had the choice ...... would you"

I don't get to "send" my wife anywhere, I don't own her nor am I her boss.

I think this is indicative of your attitude.

 

But you wanted to make a point that men don't 'traditionally' take much shared leave.

 

How can there be a tradition? Shared leave has existed for THREE years. A fact that you didn't know when you were talking about your vast experience of the subject and criticising the fact that I'd only read about it!

 

I've no idea why you think an equal sharing of leave on average is some kind of socialist dream, perhaps you should check the definition of socialism.

Why should people like me insist that for things to be more equal it should be taken up? I haven't. You started this argument when I pointed out that shared leave existed and provided the opportunity for equal leave between men and women.

Maternity leave was being raised as an example of the "war on men", something that men didn't get. It's not true though anymore, equality cuts both ways and maternity/paternity has had moves to make it more equal recently. You then wanted to argue about it, despite apparently knowing nothing about it yourself.

 

You don't seem to really understand what I've said about machismo either, here, have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

 

Your being a tad pedantic on the wording of my parody but you got the gist of it really, and what you know about my attitude would not fill the back of a matchbox, I'm afraid to say. I have never been my wife's boss either she is a ballsy tough working class woman, who can put to shame the average emasculated male snowflake and many others besides .

While ever you argue about things on the basis of machismo and male culture needing to change you are waging the war on men, machismo and male culture have served a purpose in society otherwise they wouldn't exist, you seem to feel that male culture needs to change which is the leftist narrative.

The sharing of leave is exactly how you said it, a choice between the people involved, and if men are not taking it up, that is because they have chosen not to, maybe partly because of the culture you mention but so what ?

Again please enlighten me about the damage and restraining this causes, I will accept your opinion if you don't decide to google someone elses, but I don't have to agree with it.