''The war on men''

[Michael_W]

Read your own words.

"You wouldn't send your wife up a ladder".

There's no failure to understand, it'd indicative of your attitude towards women.

You've confused sarcastic with patronising.

Because that's the word that is used by the studies that look at the reasons for low uptake.

It's not a loaded word anyway. It's just a word.

No.

 

I don't have to prove that. I'm not interested in it at all.

I can rephrase my sentence to use 'toxic masculinity', presumably the link about which you didn't read.

You're the one who wants to argue with the conclusion that I've shared (it's not my conclusion), in fact it seems to have made you angry. So go ahead and demonstrate why it's not toxic masculinity that has impeded the take up of shared leave on the side of men.

 

You don't know my attitude towards women at all, just like Andbreathe your using pedantry about the words I have posted and twisted it in your head to suit your argument .... FAIL !

 

Sarcastic, patronising even condescending, don't go having a go at people who give it you back it's pathetic and hypocritical !

You mentioned machismo just as you linked it to whatever articles you had read, like I said before I don't need to read them, they are loaded, that's identity politics though eh, and your a feminist so they fit in with your agenda, I don't have an issue with that ..... but you can't go round trying to beat everyone who does not agree with you with the feminist stick, I'm not angry at all but Andbreathe had better tone down his personal nonsense

[Cyclone]

We only know what you demonstrate on here with your words.

 

I haven't had a go at anyone, I was sarcastic about the point you made, not about you. "Something exists therefore it must have been/be useful" is an illogical argument, I demonstrated that. Obelix had already commented on it before me.

You on the other hand keep attacking the individual posters you don't agree with.

 

You refuse to read about toxic masculinity, it's no wonder it's difficult to discuss with you. How can you possibly discuss something when you don't understand the term and won't make any effort to do so.

 

"You're a feminist". Why aren't you? Why isn't everyone? Feminism is about equality for women, does that scare you or something?

 

Ironic, he responds to your words, you attack him.

[Michael_W]

We only know what you demonstrate on here with your words.

 

I haven't had a go at anyone, I was sarcastic about the point you made, not about you. "Something exists therefore it must have been/be useful" is an illogical argument, I demonstrated that. Obelix had already commented on it before me.

You on the other hand keep attacking the individual posters you don't agree with.

 

You refuse to read about toxic masculinity, it's no wonder it's difficult to discuss with you. How can you possibly discuss something when you don't understand the term and won't make any effort to do so.

 

"You're a feminist". Why aren't you? Why isn't everyone? Feminism is about equality for women, does that scare you or something?

 

Ironic, he responds to your words, you attack him.

 

I know what machismo and toxic masculinity are Cyclone , I understand the use of those words in arguments like this, I have no issue with feminism and equality, but there does seem to be a constant attack on male culture, as if somehow that is the only thing that needs to be addressed to achieve those aims .... I think some of it is very misguided.

[Andbreathe]

You don't know my attitude towards women at all, just like Andbreathe your using pedantry about the words I have posted and twisted it in your head to suit your argument ....

 

No one needs to twist your words...you’re quite obviously able to do that yourself...

 

I'm not angry at all but Andbreathe had better tone down his personal nonsense

 

It was you that introduced the personal touch with your silly parodies...and it was responded too..

 

You attack a poster on “feminism” as though the word is filth without actually responding to the actual request...

[Cyclone]

I know what machismo and toxic masculinity are Cyclone , I understand the use of those words in arguments like this, I have no issue with feminism and equality, but there does seem to be a constant attack on male culture, as if somehow that is the only thing that needs to be addressed to achieve those aims .... I think some of it is very misguided.

 

I don't think you know what they are at all.

 

I actually asked why you weren't a feminist, equality for women is not an attack on "male culture". Equality for everyone is something we should all want isn't it?

 

And going back to the point you so strongly objected to, evidence suggests that the low uptake of parental leave by men is down to machismo and some aspects of male culture (those being the toxic parts).

Men feel unable or unwilling to ask for time of work, even when they're entitled to it, because they think it will be perceived as weak and it's "not the done thing". This is harmful. It's harmful to those men who would otherwise take more than 2 weeks off. It's harmful to the families of those men. They are restrained in their behaviour by what they think are cultural norms and the perceptions of their peers, subordinates and superiors. They don't want to be seen as weak.

[melthebell]

I know what machismo and toxic masculinity are Cyclone , I understand the use of those words in arguments like this, I have no issue with feminism and equality, but there does seem to be a constant attack on male culture, as if somehow that is the only thing that needs to be addressed to achieve those aims .... I think some of it is very misguided.

 

we are all male, why dont we feel the same attack then? why is it just you?

 

oh yeah cos youre a right wing bigot living in the 1950s

[Michael_W]

No one needs to twist your words...you’re quite obviously able to do that yourself...

 

 

 

It was you that introduced the personal touch with your silly parodies...and it was responded too..

 

You attack a poster on “feminism” as though the word is filth without actually responding to the actual request...

 

May I refer you to your interjection to this circular argument between me and Cyclone, in post #213, you posted while quoting Cyclone:

 

Be gentle on him...after all he is only a bit right wing...

 

To which I responded to you:

 

He seems to be the one needing gentleness, I am just responding in kind, anything to add

 

Are you and the cyclone joined at the hip, he even answered a remark about 'wife and drill' I made to you as if I had made it to him, my suspicions are aroused, you leftist posters are very similar in content I know and both of you seem to be carrying on about the ladder post as if you had found a pot of gold

 

---------- Post added 16-03-2018 at 22:04 ----------

 

we are all male, why dont we feel the same attack then? why is it just you?

 

oh yeah cos youre a right wing bigot living in the 1950s

 

Oh mel that's a classic, come on man, seriously :hihi:

 

---------- Post added 16-03-2018 at 22:27 ----------

 

I don't think you know what they are at all.

 

I actually asked why you weren't a feminist, equality for women is not an attack on "male culture". Equality for everyone is something we should all want isn't it?

 

And going back to the point you so strongly objected to, evidence suggests that the low uptake of parental leave by men is down to machismo and some aspects of male culture (those being the toxic parts).

Men feel unable or unwilling to ask for time of work, even when they're entitled to it, because they think it will be perceived as weak and it's "not the done thing". This is harmful. It's harmful to those men who would otherwise take more than 2 weeks off. It's harmful to the families of those men. They are restrained in their behaviour by what they think are cultural norms and the perceptions of their peers, subordinates and superiors. They don't want to be seen as weak.

 

Your version of feminism and equality is not the same as mine Cyclone, you just repeat the same identity politics you read in the leftist media (yes I'm having to repeat myself too ). Your version of what's harmful and restrained is taken straight from the same line of leftist agenda driven drivel and yet in an earlier post your anecdotal stuff referred to the following:

 

I only know of a few cases to draw on anecdotes, but honestly they seem more than happy to be back at work rather than at home with a screaming baby.

 

In my opinion that's as much choice as machismo, and in reality is just the sort of thing blokes jokingly say when they talk amongst themselves .... does that sound so damaging and restraining ?

Personally I think the sort of generalisations made about men by some leftists/feminists would be roundly criticised if those on the political right made similar generalisations about any 'other' groups of people.

[Andbreathe]

my suspicions are aroused.

 

No, it's your paranoia that’s gone into meltdown. 2,3 or more people agreeing or reading from the same page doesn’t constitute “welded at the hip”. Cyclone doesn’t need to answer points only made to him on a forum..as I don’t. You make an obvious gaff regardless of who you’re exchanging with then you’re open to criticism from any poster on the forum....it’s how it works. Try not to let it get to you Michele...

[Michael_W]

No, it's your paranoia that’s gone into meltdown. 2,3 or more people agreeing or reading from the same page doesn’t constitute “welded at the hip”. Cyclone doesn’t need to answer points only made to him on a forum..as I don’t. You make an obvious gaff regardless of who you’re exchanging with then you’re open to criticism from any poster on the forum....it’s how it works. Try not to let it get to you Michele...

 

I'm not paranoid in the slightest, however you came on purely to snipe and have contributed little to this discussion, other than agree with Cyclones posts, I personally disagree with much of the leftist hype around many things, the left thrive on exaggeration, the sort of which they then accuse people from the right of doing.

Do you see this yourself ?

Do you take from 'the media' only the things you politically and socially agree with, and then sneer at others who you allege do the same from an opposing view ?

 

The crux of my point is that Cyclone is happy to read something and believe it to be right word for word, and yet both him and myself have anecdotal stuff that conflicts with that. The thing about 'male culture', is that, if it is so wrong why has it become so wrong and is it just a case of oppressing this 'male culture' to suit the feminist/leftist ideology, or should the whole culture( female included) change ..... I know where I stand, but if we are only to address 'male culture' then that is an attack on such, rightly or wrongly !

 

Oh btw I didn't say welded I said joined, stop changing the words it's coming across as deliberate misrepresentation

Edited March 17, 2018 by Michael_W

[Halibut]

I'm not paranoid in the slightest, however you came on purely to snipe and have contributed little to this discussion, other than agree with Cyclones posts, I personally disagree with much of the leftist hype around many things, the left thrive on exaggeration, the sort of which they then accuse people from the right of doing.

Do you see this yourself ?

Do you take from 'the media' only the things you politically and socially agree with, and then sneer at others who you allege do the same from an opposing view ?

 

The crux of my point is that Cyclone is happy to read something and believe it to be right word for word, and yet both him and myself have anecdotal stuff that conflicts with that. The thing about 'male culture', is that, if it is so wrong why has it become so wrong and is it just a case of oppressing this 'male culture' to suit the feminist/leftist ideology, or should the whole culture( female included) change ..... I know where I stand, but if we are only to address 'male culture' then that is an attack on such, rightly or wrongly !

 

Oh btw I didn't say welded I said joined, stop changing the words it's coming across as deliberate misrepresentation

 

If there are serious problems with male culture - as there clearly are - they need addressing. That I don't take that as a personal attack and you do is perhaps indicative that you are a greater part of the problem.