Sheffield train electrification cancellation hidden by tories.

[spilldig]

It’s important because it shows that all the Evil Tory talk of a Northern Powerhouse is just a load of hot air.

 

And anybody still waiting with baited breath for the Evil Tories to spend £billions on us simple village folk Oop North once we leave the EU, will very likely die of asphyxiation.

 

Finally, how much is Crossrail personally costing me?

 

That’s right, nearly £16 BEELLION.

 

How much benefit will I get from it?

 

Zero

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2018 at 13:26 ----------

 

 

Ah yes, the “all politicians lie” card.

 

They all lie, right?

 

Except Sir Nige’ and the Trumpet, when those small-minded morons say something that agrees with your own small-minded prejudices.

 

Please, do us all a favour and stay off the internet for the Easter break. Take the grandkids out to the park or summat.

 

Please don't mention the Northern Power House ,it has always made me laugh that much I nearly fall of my chair.

[WalkleyIan]

meanwhile in that big city over the hills investment carries on despite the flavour of government ...

 

Greater Manchester mayor unveils £240m 'Congestion Deal'

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-43517606

[1978]

It’s often hard to identify exactly where elected politicians and those operating our public services fail to connect, but to anyone with any knowledge of the railway industry it was clear that the recent promises being given were beyond the capacity of Network Rail to deliver. Wishful thinking about a to-do list that couldn’t possibly be completed in the timescales suggested and within the budgets available. Now we need to be realistic about what can happen. Politicians should take more heed of reality than the gung-ho promises of those offering schemes that cannot be realistically delivered. The current timetable review is just a natural consequence of all this.

 

HS2 is a classic case. Section 2a is to be in two parts, east and west. I’ve little doubt that the western section will be completed to Manchester and also offering electric services up to Glasgow from a relatively early date as well as to Leeds and on to the North East. Leeds and Newcastle will then have two fast electric options to both the south and midlands via HS2 and/or the ECML.

 

By opting to reject the eastern route via Meadowhall we’ve made the project more complicated, so easier to delay the eastern link’s completion, possibly cancel it altogether. The perceived savings by using existing tracks fail to take account of the congestion on the tracks between Chesterfield and Sheffield, and then towards Leeds. Reinstating 4 tracks in the Sheaf Valley sounds easy enough – until Tesco’s and other businesses have to be rehoused and compensated. Tunnelling under Park Hill sounds a good idea, but at what cost? It may cost more than staying with Meadowhall, so we may end with neither!

 

Sheffield is the victim and beneficiary of both history and geography. The 19th century railways concentrated fast traffic on the east and west coast mainlines and to Bristol. The Race to the North (see; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_North ) passed Sheffield by, although we did benefit from competition between the Midland and Great Central Railways, both arriving later than those fast routes to Scotland and the west country.

 

There are some basic facts we need to bear in mind. Many, if not most, of our railways were designed for slow moving freight services. Coal trains were the reason for building both the Woodhead and Hope Valley lines. Almost every station had a freight yard where regular trains would stop, reverse in, shunt a few wagons, then set off to repeat the procedure all the way along the line. Domestic coal was dropped off at almost every one. The consequence was that there wasn’t enough line capacity for passenger trains to run at full speed very often. Between Sheffield and Manchester one passenger train an hour taking 50 minutes could be threaded between the freights on the Woodhead line.

 

The big difference from 60 years ago is that we have more frequent passenger trains on most routes, but we won’t see many 14 coach trains – most likely a steam special if we do. During the Second World War 20 coach trains weren’t unknown and one was recorded with 24 coaches hauled by an A4 through Hitchin at 70mph. Actual numbers of passengers carried could be high despite infrequency of service. Sheffield Midland’s Platform 8 can take a 19-coach train, Platforms 2 and 6 can take 17 coaches.

 

Whilst increased frequency of services helps to create quicker links between journey starting and finishing points it creates congestion that reduces some of those benefits. It can be argued that an hourly service of 10 coach trains should give a more robust service than half hourly 5 coach trains. Our journeys don’t start and finish at rail stations so the total time we need to commit for the whole journey is important. That means trains need to run to time to allow us to connect with other services or get to events on time. Better to time the train to take 5 minutes longer and keep to time than to frequently arrive too late for connections.

 

Staying with history, Sheffield suffers from a schizophrenic railway heritage. Victoria and Midland, the Great Central and Midland Railways, the two stations firmly in opposition with a long walk between the two to make connections and no tracks direrctly between. Whilst we did have 4 tracks (now reduced to 2 with Tesco’s built across the track bed) to the south out of Midland we’re stuck with two to the north and a massive bill to improve that situation at either end. Sheffield to London has been Marylebone, Kings Cross or St Pancras - and at times it still can be when the best option is via Doncaster and the ECML.

 

It being a wet day and having some old timetables to hand I’ve had a look at trains to London since the Master Cutler was introduced in 1947. I’ve selected 6 years to compare with today and the new timetable in May. I haven’t found the year/s when the Master Cutler took less than 2 hours, but I think that happened for a short period.

 

1947 7.40 LNER Victoria to Marylebone a. 11.15 3 hours 35 minutes - Master Cutler ----------- 8.55 LMS Midland to St Pancras a. 12.35 3 hours 40 minutes. (From 1958 to 1968 Master Cutler ran to Kings Cross)

1961 7.20 Victoria to Kings Cross a. 10.15 2 hours 55 minutes – Master Cutler ---------------- 8.30 Midland to St Pancras a. 11.45 3 hours 15 minutes

1979 7.15 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.45 2 hour 30 minutes – Master Cutler

1983 7.15 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.30 2 hours 15 minutes – Master Cutler

1989 7.20 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.30 2 hours 10 minutes – Master Cutler

1997 7.20 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.27 2 hours 7 minutes – Master Cutler

2017 7.29 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.33 2 hours 4 minutes – Master Cutler

2018 7.29 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.41 2 hours 12 minutes – Master Cutler

 

After browsing many tables to find services between Sheffield and London I can confirm that we are much better served by online timetable searching. I recall my father buying the national Bradshaw or British Railways timetables as soon as they were issued to plan journeys around the country. I’d forgotten how difficult that was. In the days listed above there were so many more route options to take into account to allow for infrequent and slow services, with several connections sometimes necessary to allow for that infrequency as well as the speed.

 

Maybe it says something about priorities when we go up to London and always come down to the country!

 

---------- Post added 31-03-2018 at 15:57 ----------

 

meanwhile in that big city over the hills investment carries on despite the flavour of government ...

 

Greater Manchester mayor unveils £240m 'Congestion Deal'

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-43517606

 

Remember the Northern Hub was originally the Manchester Hub - and it's delivering prosperity to Manchester in a similar way to how London draws in a high proprtion of investment in the South-East.

 

The Tyne & Wear Metro has recently been the beneficiary of a similar injection of investment. Go to Nottingham and take a tram down to Toton Lane - near the projected HS2 station for the East Midlands if it ever gets built. Look at all the parking they've arrarnged, 1400 spaces and although only open a year or so it was well filled last week; https://www.thetram.net/park-and-ride.aspx The whole NET system is impressive and we had a big head start on them, yet they must now be running ahead of us.. Sheffield and South Yorkshire needs a team to drive us more dynamically forward. Maybe Dan Jarvis can be the man to get things done.

[Annie Bynnol]

.

 

It being a wet day and having some old timetables to hand I’ve had a look at trains to London since the Master Cutler was introduced in 1947. I’ve selected 6 years to compare with today and the new timetable in May. I haven’t found the year/s when the Master Cutler took less than 2 hours, but I think that happened for a short period.

 

1947 7.40 LNER Victoria to Marylebone a. 11.15 3 hours 35 minutes - Master Cutler ----------- 8.55 LMS Midland to St Pancras a. 12.35 3 hours 40 minutes. (From 1958 to 1968 Master Cutler ran to Kings Cross)

1961 7.20 Victoria to Kings Cross a. 10.15 2 hours 55 minutes – Master Cutler ---------------- 8.30 Midland to St Pancras a. 11.45 3 hours 15 minutes

1979 7.15 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.45 2 hour 30 minutes – Master Cutler

1983 7.15 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.30 2 hours 15 minutes – Master Cutler

1989 7.20 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.30 2 hours 10 minutes – Master Cutler

1997 7.20 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.27 2 hours 7 minutes – Master Cutler

2017 7.29 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.33 2 hours 4 minutes – Master Cutler

2018 7.29 Midland to St Pancras a. 9.41 2 hours 12 minutes – Master Cutler.

 

July to October 2018 St Pancras To Sheffield 1hours 51 minutes

 

Then?

[Anna B]

We need to build a road tunnel under the Pennines, using the old railway tunnels, as an alternative winter route to Manchester. Robin Hood airport needs to be expanded to take intercontinental air traffic (the runways are plenty long enough, to form an international airport in the North that will rival Heathrow. Hull docks should be expanded to become as large and important as Rotterdam and the hook of Holland.

 

Then maybe we could really become a 'Northern Power House.'

 

Just an idea...

[1978]

We need to build a road tunnel under the Pennines, using the old railway tunnels, as an alternative winter route to Manchester. Robin Hood airport needs to be expanded to take intercontinental air traffic (the runways are plenty long enough, to form an international airport in the North that will rival Heathrow. Hull docks should be expanded to become as large and important as Rotterdam and the hook of Holland.

 

Then maybe we could really become a 'Northern Power House.'

 

Just an idea...

 

Starngely enough it was only a fortnight ago when Doncaster Sheffield Airport, DSA, Robin Hood launched their plans to do exactly what is suggested and it got prime time coverage on Look North and Calendar as well as in the Sheffield Star and Yorkshire Post. It is the subject of two threads on this very Forum; https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1538566 and; https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1538165

 

Associated British Ports are well aware of the potential, see their website to see how big they already are on the Humber, out of sight, out of mind to us up in the hills; http://www.abports.co.uk/Our_Locations/Humber/

 

Regarding the road link that too is currently a hot topic and is part of the current consultation by Transport for the North in its Draft Strategic Plan. Anyone can send in their views by 17th April. Just go here to read the report and make practical comments; https://transportforthenorth.com/stp/

 

Using the old Woodhead tunnels for a new road, or rail, route is likely to be a non starter. It would be cheaper and better to start from scratch thereby providing tunnels suitable for 21st Century purposes. They'd need to go underground at places best suited to meeting today's practical and environmental concerns, including any new links to get to the tunnel/s. Today's standards for ventilation and emergency access wouldn't be anywhere near met for road purposes in the old tunnels, so reboring them would be necessary. It will/would cost an awful lot of money.

Edited March 31, 2018 by 1978
Added more detail about Humber ports and corrected links

[Anna B]

Starngely enough it was only a fortnight ago when Doncaster Sheffield Airport, DSA, Robin Hood launched their plans to do exactly what is suggested and it got prime time coverage on Look North and Calendar as well as in the Sheffield Star and Yorkshire Post. It is the subject of two threads on this very Forum; https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1538566 and; https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1538165

 

British Ports are well aware of the potential on the Humber.

 

Regarding the road link that too is currently a hot topic and is part of the current consultation by Transport for the North in its Draft Strategic Plan. Anyone can send in their views by 17th April. Just go here to read the report and make practical comments; https://transportforthenorth.com/stp/

 

Using the old Woodhead tunnels for a new road, or rail, route is likely to be a non starter. It would be cheaper and better to start from scratch thereby providing tunnels suitable for 21st Century purposes. They'd need to go underground at places best suited to meeting today's practical and environmental concerns, including any new links to get to the tunnel/s. Today's standards for ventilation and emergency access wouldn't be anywhere near met for road purposes in the old tunnels, so reboring them would be necessary. It will/would cost an awful lot of money.

 

They'd be a lot more use than HS2 which is going to be hugely expensive, out of date before it even gets started, and merely shaves a few minutes off a trip to London. It also sees the North as a mere satellite of London and the South East. I think Sheffield should also have a small airport for light aircraft, I think we're the only city of any size not to have one.

 

Newcastle, Gateshead et al also need to be included in the 'Northern Powerhouse, but I don't know enough about them to know what they can bring to the table. Perhaps other SF people know them better than I do.

[1978]

They'd be a lot more use than HS2 which is going to be hugely expensive, out of date before it even gets started, and merely shaves a few minutes off a trip to London. It also sees the North as a mere satellite of London and the South East. I think Sheffield should also have a small airport for light aircraft, I think we're the only city of any size not to have one.

 

Newcastle, Gateshead et al also need to be included in the 'Northern Powerhouse, but I don't know enough about them to know what they can bring to the table. Perhaps other SF people know them better than I do.

 

You'll find the North East is part of the Powerhouse as far as Transport for the North is concened, see their Draft Strategic Plan on which they're inviting comment, see; https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/TfN-Strategic-Plan_draft_lr.pdf

 

I've provided information and links to enable constructive contributions to be made in the consultation. All comments will be considered by the people who are best placed to help get changes implemented.

 

I'd point out that current safety regulations for new long road and rail tunnels require separate tunnels for each direction, with communicating escape passages between at regular intervals, combined with strong ventilation. That's why the Channel Tunnel is actually 3 tunnels. The old Woodhead tunnels would not meet those very necessary requirements. If you have doubts read what happened in the Mont Blanc tunnel in the Alps betwen Italy and France in 1999 when 38 people were killed in a fire. That fire burned for over 2 days, see; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_Tunnel#The_1999_fire There have also been fires in the Frejus tunnel, and in the Channel Tunnel itself.

 

I'd also point out that a new long rail tunnel for fast trains has to be built as two tunnels because the air pressure preceding two trains approaching in opposite directions becomes dangerous at high speeds. Rail passengers will know when two trains pass in Bradway or Totley Tunnel it's like hitting an object. Totley is limited to 60 mph but there was a derailment in 1971 which wasn't disasatrous only because nothing was going the other way.

 

Please use the links in my original post as those quoted by Anna B may be invalid.

[Guest makapaka]

We will never get anything from the tories - they have no interest in us whatsoever.

 

Vote them out.

[ECCOnoob]

We will never get anything from the tories - they have no interest in us whatsoever.

 

Vote them out.

 

Yeah, because it was boom time during the 12 years of Labour wasnt it......

 

Face facts. Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire never gets anything because backward thinking inbreads try to thwart it at every opportunity. Just like they have done for decades before in our cessspit of a council chamber. Until people stop harking back to the so called glory days of the 70s, stop blaming the long dead Thatcher for every single failure in their lives, stop constantly wittering on about how we never have it as good as Leeds or Manchester and actually do something to get this city moving on its own two feet, NOTHING will change.

 

The stock cop out response of "Blame the Tories" just doesnt cut it.

Edited April 1, 2018 by ECCOnoob