Sheffield train electrification cancellation hidden by tories.

[Arthur Ritus]

Going "off track" a bit,

[1978]

Part of the problem witn British electrification is the mix of 3rd (and 4th on underground) rail lines and different voltages and systems for overhead lines. Consequently even the fastest south-eastern 3rd rail trains can never achieve the highest speeds achieved on the ECML or WCML. Thameslink trains have to switch from one to the other.

 

The old North-Eastern overhead systems were incompatible with those adopted later nationally but were intended to get the ECML electrified before 1930. Blaming any political party misses a lot of the history. The rationalisation in 1923 created the LMS, LNER, GWR and Southern when railways had passed their peak. Closures were already happening then. Ever since the decline has had to be managed and increasing subsidies handed out, however they're calculated and whatever they're called.

 

Yes, we're in a bit of a shambles, particularly on the East Midland line. That seems to have been compounded by news this weekend that First Group and Trenitalia have pulled out of the franchise competition leaving Stagecoach, Abellio and Arriva Rail, see; https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018/04/23/first-group-trenitalia-jv-pulls-out-of-east-midlands-franchise-bidding/

Edited April 23, 2018 by 1978

[pss60]

Part of the problem witn British electrification is the mix of 3rd (and 4th on underground) rail lines and different voltages and systems for overhead lines. Consequently even the fastest south-eastern 3rd rail trains can never achieve the highest speeds achieved on the ECML or WCML. Thameslink trains have to switch from one to the other.

 

The old North-Eastern overhead systems were incompatible with those adopted later nationally but were intended to get the ECML electrified before 1930. Blaming any political party misses a lot of the history. The rationalisation in 1923 created the LMS, LNER, GWR and Southern when railways had passed their peak. Closures were already happening then. Ever since the decline has had to be managed and increasing subsidies handed out, however they're calculated and whatever they're called.

 

Yes, we're in a bit of a shambles, particularly on the East Midland line. That seems to have been compounded by news this weekend that First Group and Trenitalia have pulled out of the franchise competition leaving Stagecoach, Abellio and Arriva Rail, see; https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018/04/23/first-group-trenitalia-jv-pulls-out-of-east-midlands-franchise-bidding/

Other countries also have a mix of electrification voltages, but they've electrified far more of their lines than what we have. People, particularly the postwar baby boomer generation and the pensioner population back when they were at work, have only been interested in tax cuts or their pensions and little else over the last 35 years, and that is why we've got inferior infrastructure.

 

---------- Post added 24-04-2018 at 14:41 ----------

 

What rubbish, if the lines were meant to be eletrified by 2010 as you state then this would have been the responsibility of the outgoing Labour government.

The electrification should have been rolling from the 1980s onwards. We have had the Tories in office for 26 of the last 39 years with sod all positive to show for it, in case you haven't noticed, but people were only interested in tax cuts or the next privatisation and little else. And yes, electrification crews did retire over the years with nobody to replace them and learn their skills.

Edited April 24, 2018 by pss60

[1978]

Other countries also have a mix of electrification voltages, but they've electrified far more of their lines than what we have. People, particularly the postwar baby boomer generation and the pensioner population back when they were at work, have only been interested in tax cuts or their pensions and little else over the last 35 years, and that is why we've got inferior infrastructure.

 

---------- Post added 24-04-2018 at 14:41 ----------

 

The electrification should have been rolling from the 1980s onwards. We have had the Tories in office for 26 of the last 39 years with sod all positive to show for it, in case you haven't noticed, but people were only interested in tax cuts or the next privatisation and little else. And yes, electrification crews did retire over the years with nobody to replace them and learn their skills.

 

Sweeping generalisations. Would that it was as easy as blaming or thanking red or blue parties. The most intensively used lines will always tend to get priority, with the lines that are least difficult coming towards the top of the list, with those that connect with existing electrified sections being most likely to proceed.

 

To say little has been done since 1980 rather overlooks the ECML and several other lines, although the lack of major electrification schemes being planned in the 1980s ensured little was actually done in the 1990s. See; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Great_Britain

 

There's a major issue to be faced with the south-east's 3rd rail system that has served well for 100 years. Today the push is for faster overhead systems and conversion of all those 3rd rail lines will/would cost an absolute fortune - but that's where any cash spent might give better economic returns.

 

And that's a major part of the problem. Rail investment is very long term. From the link above you'll see several electrification schemes have come, gone, and some came back again. THe ECML might have been electrified in the 1920s if it hadn't been for WW1. Woodhead woud have been fully operational as an electrified line much earlier if it hadn't been for WW2.

 

Governments come and go, transport requirements change. Professional railway people have preferences. Our political leaders try to balance the needs of railways against those of all the other competing claims for cash. That's why I note as I grow older that most major programmes of investment, anywhere, seem to rely on the flavour of the year, the priority of the moment.

 

Am example of which is looming for rail, evidenced by Northern refurbishing 30 years old Class 150 DMUs for use around here while some 3rd rail electric stock is being stored in the south that is less than 10 years old. The railway industry and our political masters don't appear to understand the interaction of all their well meaning decisions comes out as a dogs breakfast and too poor value for the money spent.

Edited April 24, 2018 by 1978
spelling

[pss60]

Sweeping generalisations. Would that it was as easy as blaming or thanking red or blue parties. The most intensively used lines will always tend to get priority, with the lines that are least difficult coming towards the top of the list, with those that connect with existing electrified sections being most likely to proceed.

 

To say little has been done since 1980 rather overlooks the ECML and several other lines, although the lack of major electrification schemes being planned in the 1980s ensured little was actually done in the 1990s. See; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Great_Britain

 

There's a major issue to be faced with the south-east's 3rd rail system that has served well for 100 years. Today the push is for faster overhead systems and conversion of all those 3rd rail lines will/would cost an absolute fortune - but that's where any cash spent might give better economic returns.

 

And that's a major part of the problem. Rail investment is very long term. From the link above you'll see several electrification schemes have come, gone, and some came back again. THe ECML might have been electrified in the 1920s if it hadn't been for WW1. Woodhead woud have been fully operational as an electrified line much earlier if it hadn't been for WW2.

 

Governments come and go, transport requirements change. Professional railway people have preferences. Our political leaders try to balance the needs of railways against those of all the other competing claims for cash. That's why I note as I grow older that most major programmes of investment, anywhere, seem to rely on the flavour of the year, the priority of the moment.

 

Am example of which is looming for rail, evidenced by Northern refurbishing 30 years old Class 150 DMUs for use around here while some 3rd rail electric stock is being stored in the south that is less than 10 years old. The railway industry and our political masters don't appear to understand the interaction of all their well meaning decisions comes out as a dogs breakfast and too poor value for the money spent.

The line to Kings Lynn is electrified. I wouldn't imagine it is a more important line than the Midland Mainline, but you obviously think that's the case, seeing you're excusing the shafting of this area, just like the cap doffer you are, and if excuses are made for shafting this area, guess what - it'll always be shafted. Are you Grayling's spokesman by any chance? How many miles have been electrified in other countries? Far more than here because greedy people were only interested in tax bribes and little else.

Edited April 24, 2018 by pss60

[FinBak]

The line to Kings Lynn is electrified. I wouldn't imagine it is a more important line than the Midland Mainline, but you obviously think that's the case, seeing you're excusing the shafting of this area, just like the cap doffer you are, and if excuses are made for shafting this area, guess what - it'll always be shafted. Are you Grayling's spokesman by any chance? How many miles have been electrified in other countries? Far more than here because greedy people were only interested in tax bribes and little else.

 

Cap Doffer?...No need for that fella..

[pss60]

Making false phony empty promises in politics is illegal now in many more developed EU countries. You can be charged in a court of law.

Boris Johnson could be sentenced for his big statements on that bus for brexit campaigns.

In UK idiots will ask him to be next PM when they need one. They will not learn that lesson of lies here.

 

A second hand car salesperson is typically seen as a lying dirty *******.

I see UK politicians as a group lower than that because they can lie and then say, hey its normal and ok to lie, its for my job to get thick idiot voters who will never get it anyway.

 

Electrification of main lines should have been done more than 30 years ago. Sleepy sleepy and still wondering, thinking, scratching their bald skulls thinking about something that needs doing.

Thinking don't get the job done, you need to do it. If its all about money they need to drop that HS2 immediately cause that is the biggest waste of money I have ever seen in any country I have ever lived in.

Yes, electrification should have continued without pause after the East Coast Mainline was completed - both Midland Mainline and Great Western should have been completed throughout, but the biggest waste of money isn't HS2, but Brexit. HS2 will be useful, Brexit the most useless thing imaginable, which was largely wanted by batty old bigots.

Edited April 24, 2018 by pss60

[FinBak]

Yes, electrification should have continued without pause after the East Coast Mainline was completed - both Midland Mainline and Great Western should have been completed throughout, but the biggest waste of money isn't HS2, but Brexit. HS2 will be useful, Brexit the most useless thing imaginable.

 

PSS60...Are you British?

[pss60]

PSS60...Are you British?

Enjoy the 8% contraction of the local economy and more years of cuts with no more EU funding courtesy of Brexit. Oh, and paying the ever-growing bill for it.

[1978]

I'm sorry if facts and understanding of how things happen get in the way of prejudices. The electrification from Cambridge to Kings Lynn was relatively cheap and simple at a time when it was a logical short tidying up of a route that would otherwise have been diesel when all those it fed into were electric. As I've previously said, there was a window of opportunity that was taken.

 

I'm afraid for a variety of reasons Sheffield hasn't done too well on transport investment, although we did get Supertram. It's fairly clear to see that the Tyne & Wear Metro did rather better, as has the Manchester Metro, Nottingham's NET, and trams in Croydon and Birmingham - although Leeds have missed out with their hoped for trolleybus scheme. These cities aren't all Tory strongholds.

 

We keep on about the Midland mainline, but our connections to Manchester, Leeds and Doncaster are all dire. The fact that the single line section of a kilometre through Dore & Totley station has been a known bottleneck ever since it was created in 1985 might be a good illustration. I don't suppose Grayling has ever travelled by train between Manchester and Sheffield and noted how much is an underground railway. I doubt he knows Dore & Totley is used by twice as many commuters into Manchester as into Sheffield - look at the timetables and you'll see it's because there are better services that way. Why has our city done so little to get that resolved? The main impetus for improvements on that line are coming from the Manchester end.

 

Unfortunately Sheffield's representatives have not been as relatively effective for the city as those in other cities. It goes beyond party politics.

 

---------- Post added 25-04-2018 at 00:10 ----------

 

Enjoy the 8% contraction of the local economy and more years of cuts with no more EU funding courtesy of Brexit. Oh, and paying the ever-growing bill for it.

 

I might agree with pss60 on that!