The Consequences of Brexit [part 5] Read 1st post before posting

[Flexo]

Emanuel Macron is apparently calling for a "real EU army". This is nothing new and has been on the cards for a while.

 

The greatest military threat comes from Russia. No EU country is strong enough to counter that threat alone and therefore we rely on membership of NATO. However this is too reliant on America. In practice it will take some days for America to respond effectively to an attack on Europe and there are also the noises coming from Donald Trump about how European countries should improve their defense capabilities.

 

So it makes sense for European countries to be stronger together on defense and less reliant on NATO. The obvious way to cooperate on that is via the administrative structures we have built together for the EU.

[L00b]

The greatest military threat comes from Russia. No EU country is strong enough to counter that threat alone and therefore we rely on membership of NATO. However this is too reliant on America. In practice it will take some days for America to respond effectively to an attack on Europe and there are also the noises coming from Donald Trump about how European countries should improve their defense capabilities.

 

So it makes sense for European countries to be stronger together on defense and less reliant on NATO. The obvious way to cooperate on that is via the administrative structures we have built together for the EU.

Still trying to reason with Brexiteers?

 

Bless. (Can never blame you for trying though)

[ECCOnoob]

 

What it is though, is undemocratic to drag the UK out of the EU without the support of the majority of the population.

 

It may have escaped your attention but we dont have votes based on the "population" we have a thing called the electorate.

 

Population includes newborn babies, children, protected persons with insufficient mental capacity, incarcerated prisoners. NONE of whom have any relevance to electoral proceedings.

 

Now, how many more times do you need to be told. Out of the 72% percentage who bothered to turn out to vote. The MAJORITY result was the leave vote.

 

Just like in every other election and referendum in history - no shows, dont knows and spoilt ballots dont count. That is democracy.

 

Your obsession with this meaningless "40%" figure is becoming tedious.

 

For all I wish we did, the fact is that we do not have compulsory voting in this country. You cannot evidence that that 28% gaping hole are automatically remainers just like I cannot prove they would automatically be leavers.

 

We therefore go on the results calculated on the turnout. Just like we have done for decades previous. Its over. The people (within the boundaries of the electoral system) have spoken.

 

If you want to change the system for future referendums and elections - campaign for it.

Edited November 6, 2018 by ECCOnoob

[El Cid]

Still trying to reason with Brexiteers?

 

Bless. (Can never blame you for trying though)

 

According to Channel 4 last night, less than 2% of voters have changed their mind. Most people are rather fixed in their views.

 

Of all the thousands of posts on this forum, very rarely do we see people changing their mind, just discussions getting a lower and lower tone.

[apelike]

What it is though, is undemocratic to drag the UK out of the EU without the support of the majority of the population.

 

No its not and I have given the reasons why. You cannot get the majority support of the population in any case as not all of the population can and are allowed to vote. Therefor the only way of going about it democratically, given that situation, is by it being decided by those only eligible to vote. That is how our democracy works like it or not.

 

So just to clear things up a bit and hypothetically, just how would you get the whole of the population to have a say in the matter?

 

---------- Post added 06-11-2018 at 19:23 ----------

 

The greatest military threat comes from Russia.

 

Without going to far off topic I believe you are wrong. Russia may pose a threat but I dont think it is a military one but hyped up to be one. They are now enjoying the freedoms to some extent that most of Europe have and enjoying economic success. This may be a personal opinion but I believe that when a country has tasted economic success then they are very reluctant to go to war and lose it all. Just think of what would go or stop and if the people would be happy with that.

[Top Cats Hat]

 

So just to clear things up a bit and hypothetically, just how would you get the whole of the population to have a say in the matter?

 

You can't without compulsory voting.

 

What you can do though is put conditions on the result. In 2016 the referendum should have been made mandatory but on condition that 1. At the very least, 50% of the electorate would have to support leaving the EU and 2. If the UK as a whole was to be leaving the EU, then all four regions would have to vote to leave, not just England and a bit of Wales.

 

Nobody so far has answered my question 'is it democratic to force the majority of the population to leave the EU on the say so of the minority?'

[apelike]

You can't without compulsory voting.

 

But compulsory voting would also not include all of the population.

 

Nobody so far has answered my question 'is it democratic to force the majority of the population to leave the EU on the say so of the minority?'

 

Perhaps you could first reply to this:

 

Quote by me:

 

"So just to clear things up a bit and hypothetically, just how would you get the whole of the population to have a say in the matter?"

Edited November 6, 2018 by apelike

[Top Cats Hat]

 

"So just to clear things up a bit and hypothetically, just how would you get the whole of the population to have a say in the matter?"

 

You give everyone aged 16 or over a vote and you encourage them to use it.

[apelike]

You give everyone aged 16 or over a vote and you encourage them to use it.

 

But that is still not the whole population as you keep harping on about. Our population includes babies/children, EU residents, people in prison, and a whole host of others who simply cannot vote. Just giving everyone age 16 or over the vote does not cut it either as around 18% of the population is under the age of 14 and will also be excluded. We can only do what we have at the moment and if that changes in the future then fine but until then you have to accept what we now have in place. Democracy has to draw a line somewhere.

[L00b]

According to Channel 4 last night, less than 2% of voters have changed their mind. Most people are rather fixed in their views.

 

Of all the thousands of posts on this forum, very rarely do we see people changing their mind, just discussions getting a lower and lower tone.

I wonder if that 2% includes all the Leave voters already made redundant, and those warned they're soon to be made redundant, over relocations

 

Joke -and 'price worth paying'- aside, I'm not sure how much of that phenomenon is down to entrenched views, or confirmation bias stoked by propagandist media, or simply mental fatigue about the topic over time.

 

Doesn't really matter anyway. You're a broken country, and that poll is just more evidence that you're not going to fix it any time soon I'm afraid.