Top Cats Hat Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 then it's a sad indication of the entrenched mentality that is unfortunately so common in NI politics. Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy! When Unionists bleat on about 'Ulster' being no different to Kent or Surrey, they need to be reminded that the rights to gay marriage and abortion as well as laws on Sunday trading are certainly not the same as in Kent or Surrey or anywhere else in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodview Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 Yes it’s similar in the EU. The difference is you have 28 countries to mitigate the extreme consequences of corporate lobbying. It’s quite powerful in that respect. Leaving the EU does not stop it here. It removes safeguards against corporate influence. If you follow that thread you will see (partly) why ‘pure capitalism’ ideologues are agitating for Brexit ---------- Post added 10-10-2018 at 19:11 ---------- I think he and Momentum seem very controlling with centralising instincts as well. The activity to deselect MPs will not be dynamically springing up from grass roots on its own. It will be dictated from the centre to reshape the Labour Party. I hate Labour and the Tories right now. With a passion. I get your point about lobbying, although I suspect there are other dynamics at play too with foreign firms lobbying and gaining leverage that way. It needs to stop. It gets more like American politics as time goes by. The thing I hate about politics is the poltics of it. Where has the time gone, when people went there to achieve something useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 I suspect there are other dynamics at play too with foreign firms lobbying and gaining leverage that way. The CEOs of PepsiCo, J P Morgan and General Motors have more influence over the UK government than you or I will ever have, and none of them are UK citizens. At least we actually get to vote for the European Parliament and appoint Commissioners to the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodview Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 The CEOs of PepsiCo, J P Morgan and General Motors have more influence over the UK government than you or I will ever have, and none of them are UK citizens. At least we actually get to vote for the European Parliament and appoint Commissioners to the EU. We grt to vote for uk parliament dont we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altus Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 We grt to vote for uk parliament dont we? Effectively your "we" only applies to those in marginal seats. At least every vote counted when selecting our EU representatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodview Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 Effectively your "we" only applies to those in marginal seats. At least every vote counted when selecting our EU representatives. That's right, but if 30-50% of the country vote one way, 'we' get what we voted for. I might not and you might not, but collectively we will. There was a referendum to go to a half arsed PR system, but it didn't get through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 (edited) OK. I prefer regional autonomy, whether that requires breaking away from the UK, is debateable, that can only be decided by the region in question. In terms of the EU, we chose to break away, the reason would have been very diverse, ranging from the sensible to the extreme, and logical to the wrong. Same as the the divergent reasons people wanted to stay. Fair enough. But regional autonomy is not inherently incompatible with pooled (de facto centralised) aspects of mutualised best interest. Which is what e.g. regional FTAs and other international treaties in all walks of security, economy, law etc. are all about. The name of the game is synergistic effects: politico-economic force bigger than the sum of its parts, with vertical economies in pooled areas. The EU is arguably one of the more sophisticated -yet still experimental- forms of it, but just an illustration of the principle. Likewise the US, as a much older attempt. Likewise Benelux to a smaller extent. Etc. The reverse direction undertaken by regions devolving from unity or trying to (Wales or Scotland from the UK, Catalonia from Spain, Pays Basque from Spain & France, UK from EU) is a symptom of failure in that respect, not of progression. Political, social and/or economic failure, as much of the centre mass as of the region itself. Edited October 10, 2018 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodview Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 Fair enough. But regional autonomy is not inherently incompatible with pooled (de facto centralised) aspects of mutualised best interest. Which is what e.g. regional FTAs and other international treaties in all walks of security, economy, law etc. are all about. The EU is arguably one of the more sophisticated -yet still experimental- forms of it, but just an illustrattion of the principle. Likewise the US. Likewise Benelux. Etc. The reverse direction undertaken by regions devolving from unity or trying to (Wales or Scotland from the UK, Catalonia from Spain, Pays Basque from Spain & France, UK from EU) is a symptom of failure in that respect, not of progression. Political, social and/or economic failure, as much of the centre mass as of the region itself. It depends how far reaching the 'mutual self interest' goes. There are aspects of a centralased sytem that I agree would be beneficial, but taking it as far as central law making is too far for me. At least our crazy bid for independence wasn't handled like the Catalan debacle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 It depends how far reaching the 'mutual self interest' goes. There are aspects of a centralased sytem that I agree would be beneficial, but taking it as far as central law making is too far for me. At least our crazy bid for independence wasn't handled like the Catalan debacle... Regardless of how it was handled, their 92% vote in favour of leaving Spain had more legitimacy than our 38% vote to leave the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 I get your point about lobbying, although I suspect there are other dynamics at play too with foreign firms lobbying and gaining leverage that way. It needs to stop. It gets more like American politics as time goes by. The thing I hate about politics is the poltics of it. Where has the time gone, when people went there to achieve something useful? I’m saying that lobbying by foreign firms is happening. Between 10-15 years ago I worked for a US technology firm and part of my role was technical advice for people from and representatives of the company who were lobbying governments. I’ve actually been involved in this, been paid for it, and I know exactly what goes on. I hope I’m proved wrong but IMO for leading Brexiters ‘taking back control’ is a means to selling that control to the highest corporate bidder. It doesn’t mean putting that control into the hands of British people. That is the big con. Taking back control to give it away again to their cronies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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