The Consequences of Brexit [part 5] Read 1st post before posting

[Lockdoctor]

The majority of people in both the Basque Country and Catalonia have wanted independence for decades but as both regions are among the wealthiest areas of Spain, the government in Madid has always resisted independence for either region.

 

That is why the Basques took up arms against the Spanish government and the Catalans held their own 'illegal' referendums.

I think its nearer a 50-50 split judging by the make up of the Catalonia Parliament. David Cameron only authorised the Scottish Independent referendum after the SNP won a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament. The fact is national Governments don't encourage parts of their regions to seek independence for many reasons.

 

---------- Post added 11-10-2018 at 11:21 ----------

 

So much for the wishes of "the democratic people" eh?

Referendums have to be legal or we would end up with anarchy.

[L00b]

The way the referendum was quashed was a disgrace, and I fully support their right to have one. I also find the EU reaction to it disturbing.

Why so?

 

Surely you’re not one of those posters who believe that the EU should have done about Catalonia, what it cannot do howsoever, yet which they misleadingly accuse it of: intervene in sovereign, non-delegated national competencies?

[woodview]

Why so?

 

Surely you’re not one of those posters who believe that the EU should have done about Catalonia, what it cannot do howsoever, yet which they misleadingly accuse it of: intervene in sovereign, non-delegated national competencies?

Well the state quashing of the referendum, and the police tactics emplyed was a disgrace. Surely you would condemn the brutality employed to stop a vote taking place? I would.

I don't think the EU want Catalan independence, it goes against the ethos of the eu. Therefore, no comment on Madrids handing of it.

 

---------- Post added 11-10-2018 at 11:42 ----------

 

I think its nearer a 50-50 split judging by the make up of the Catalonia Parliament. David Cameron only authorised the Scottish Independent referendum after the SNP won a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament. The fact is national Governments don't encourage parts of their regions to seek independence for many reasons.

 

---------- Post added 11-10-2018 at 11:21 ----------

 

Referendums have to be legal or we would end up with anarchy.

So, on the same basis Catalonia, could legitamately ask for a referendum.

I would say thatMadrid would never allow it. Surely an 'illegal' referendum is the way to go, rather than the horrors that the basques did?

[Lockdoctor]

So, on the same basis Catalonia, could legitamately ask for a referendum.

I would say thatMadrid would never allow it. Surely an 'illegal' referendum is the way to go, rather than the horrors that the basques did?

It's up to the Spanish Government to decide. We have to remember Spain only became a democracy in the 1970's and the Catalonia Parliament is not the same as the devolution setup of the UK.

 

---------- Post added 11-10-2018 at 11:54 ----------

 

Why so?

 

Surely you’re not one of those posters who believe that the EU should have done about Catalonia, what it cannot do howsoever, yet which they misleadingly accuse it of: intervene in sovereign, non-delegated national competencies?

I agree with your viewpoint regarding the EU and the illegal Catalonia referendum.

[truman]

It's up to the Spanish Government to decide. We have to remember Spain only became a democracy in the 1970's and the Catalonia Parliament is not the same as the devolution setup of the UK.

 

---------- Post added 11-10-2018 at 11:54 ----------

 

I agree with your viewpoint regarding the EU and the illegal Catalonia referendum.

 

If the people of Catalonia wanted a referendum why shouldn't they be allowed one? Isn't part of their democratic right?

[Top Cats Hat]

 

what it cannot do howsoever, yet which they misleadingly accuse it of: intervene in sovereign, non-delegated national competencies?

 

Fortunately, Spain seems to have resisted the kind of far right populism which has afflicted other parts of Europe recently.

 

However, it would be interesting to speculate on what the EU response would be to an Italian or Hungarian style populist party gaining power in Spain and declaring that they proposed to annexe Gibraltar. Would the EU side with a member state against a former member state or would it try to stay neutral?

 

And what about the Gibraltarians themselves? 96% of them voted remain in 2016. How many would choose to remain in the EU under a Spanish government as opposed to 'returning' to Britain. Despite the red phone boxes, union jacks and bobbies on the beat, many Gibraltarians speak Spanish, have Spanish names, have Spanish antecedents, eat Spanish food and enjoy Spanish sunshine.

 

Is it too far fetched to envisage an unintended consequence of Brexit that in five years time the UK will consist of simply England and Wales? Even Welsh Labour politicians are expressing disquiet about Scotland and Ireland leaving the Union and Wales becoming simply a vassal state of England.

[woodview]

If the people of Catalonia wanted a referendum why shouldn't they be allowed one? Isn't part of their democratic right?

Maybe because the government don't like the potential result?

The Catalan region has no possibilty of getting a referendum endorsed by Madrid. The 'illegal' referendum was the only way for them to go. It was brutally quashed, EU made no comment whatsoever. People who helped organise the vote, are still held in Spanish jails , facing up to 30 years in jail.

I personally find it extremely disturbing that is in this day and age, in Europe, we have a country jailing people for engaging in peaceful, democratic excercises. Whatever your view on their beliefs, not condemning them being jailed is not acceptable IMO.

[L00b]

Well the state quashing of the referendum, and the police tactics emplyed was a disgrace. Surely you would condemn the brutality employed to stop a vote taking place? I would.

The EU did

I don't think the EU want Catalan independence, it goes against the ethos of the eu. Therefore, no comment on Madrids handing of it.

I don’t think there’s any objective statement on which to base that inference. As to the ethos of the EU, it is about cooperation between member states (of any size), which (reminder ) is absolutely not incompatible with regionalisation.

 

---------- Post added 11-10-2018 at 12:02 ----------

 

<...>

 

However, it would be interesting to speculate on what the EU response would be to an Italian or Hungarian style populist party gaining power in Spain and declaring that they proposed to annexe Gibraltar. Would the EU side with a member state against a former member state or would it try to stay neutral?

 

<...>

One word: Cyprus. Perhaps an oversimplification, but I’m sure you get my drift

 

The EU doesn’t burn bridges if it can avoid it, and it will go quite some lengths to avoid it (witness Barnier’s “de-dramatisation” of the NI border in past weeks after Salzburg)

 

But it is never afraid of enforcing its rules, as and when the scope of domestic authoritarianism (of e.g. Mr Orban) begins to tread on said rules. Poland is circling that particular drain too, atm.

Edited October 11, 2018 by L00b

[Top Cats Hat]

 

One word: Cyprus. Perhaps an oversimplification, but I’m sure you get my drift

 

I was going to mention Cyprus but try not to include too many differing subjects in my posts.

 

Although Turkish membership is very much on the back burner now, if it ever did come about, a united independent Cyprus may be the result.

 

It is worth bearing in mind that the EU's response to the authoritarianism of Victor Orban in 2018 is completely at odds with its response to the authoritarianism of Pedro Sãnchez in 2017.

 

I guess Madrid has more clout in Brussels than Budapest.

[Lockdoctor]

If the people of Catalonia wanted a referendum why shouldn't they be allowed one? Isn't part of their democratic right?

I don't think it's anyone's democratic right to be allowed a referendum. However, if a referendum is authorised for whatever reasons, then the result should be respected and the outcome implemented.