I1L2T3 Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Lockdoctor said: Do you mean 1975? If so, then there is a bit of a difference between waiting 41 years for another referendum in 2016 and then having an additional referendum before the result of 2016 has even been implemented. The EU wasn't the same organisation in 2016 as it was when the democratic UK people voted in 1975 to stay in the EEC. Why wouldn't they? We can have votes and referendums whenever the democratic people demand them, if necessary The whole point about giving people a say is we have much more information, and the WA is now known. The democratic people should be able to decide whether they want that WA or not, or at the very least their representatives should decide. If their representatives cannot agree then it should go back to the democratic people. That my friend is democracy. Right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockdoctor Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 1 hour ago, I1L2T3 said: We can have votes and referendums whenever the democratic people demand them, if necessary The whole point about giving people a say is we have much more information, and the WA is now known. The democratic people should be able to decide whether they want that WA or not, or at the very least their representatives should decide. If their representatives cannot agree then it should go back to the democratic people. That my friend is democracy. Right there. We haven't had a referendum about bringing back the death penalty which has been asked for by our people in the past. The truth is referendums have only ever been authorised when the Government of the day strongly believe the result will go the way the Government wants. Parliament overwhelmingly voted in favour of holding the 2016 EU referendum because they expected the UK democratic people to vote to Remain in the EU. The truth now is that the people who are campaigning for another EU referendum are the people who voted Remain in 2016 and still haven't accepted the choice the democratic people made. Yes, we do know the details of the Withdrawal Agreement and the truth is the people who voted Remain in 2016 and still don't accept the result will not accept any Withdrawal Agreement on offer because they want the UK to stay in the EU. The truth is there are large numbers of our representatives in Parliament, who still don't respect the democratic referendum result and these MPs will vote against any Withdrawal Agreement on offer because they want the UK to stay in the EU. The decision should certainly not go back to the UK people to decide because the UK democratic people decided what they wanted in 2016. If our representatives in Parliament can not agree to accept the Withdrawal Agreement on offer or an amended Withdrawal Agreement then the UK should leave the EU on 29th March next year without a Brexit deal and honour the choice the democratic people made in 2016. The truth my friend is that I respect democracy and you only respect democracy when the democratic people make a choice to your own personal liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJRB Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said: We haven't had a referendum about bringing back the death penalty which has been asked for by our people in the past. The truth is referendums have only ever been authorised when the Government of the day strongly believe the result will go the way the Government wants. Parliament overwhelmingly voted in favour of holding the 2016 EU referendum because they expected the UK democratic people to vote to Remain in the EU. The truth now is that the people who are campaigning for another EU referendum are the people who voted Remain in 2016 and still haven't accepted the choice the democratic people made. Yes, we do know the details of the Withdrawal Agreement and the truth is the people who voted Remain in 2016 and still don't accept the result will not accept any Withdrawal Agreement on offer because they want the UK to stay in the EU. The truth is there are large numbers of our representatives in Parliament, who still don't respect the democratic referendum result and these MPs will vote against any Withdrawal Agreement on offer because they want the UK to stay in the EU. The decision should certainly not go back to the UK people to decide because the UK democratic people decided what they wanted in 2016. If our representatives in Parliament can not agree to accept the Withdrawal Agreement on offer or an amended Withdrawal Agreement then the UK should leave the EU on 29th March next year without a Brexit deal and honour the choice the democratic people made in 2016. The truth my friend is that I respect democracy and you only respect democracy when the democratic people make a choice to your own personal liking. A referendum on the death penalty is a suitable comparison which reflects the foolishness of Cameron’s original referendum. Do you want the death penalty to be re introduced ,answer yes or no.? Then any thinking person would have to decide in their own head in what circumstances a particular murderer would deserve to die. This would no doubt throw up numerous cases and opinions which would be left for someone else to sort out. Many would be saying that this is not the death penalty that I voted for,just as few who voted Brexit are going to get anything like what they hoped for. Time to think again? An increasing number think so and it illustrates the right of people to challenge this particular interpretation of Brexit which condemns the U.K. to be an outsider in Europe with less real control rather than asserting our sovereignty. Democracy in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANGELFIRE1 Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 All of a sudden we have gone from Brexit means Brexit to vote for my deal or it may be that we have have another vote or remain in the EU. I suspect we are been sold a pup. Democracy as I see it is tottering on the cliff edge now, the will of the majority is in danger of been ignored. Call me cynical, but is this situation we are in been manipulated by the remain establishment (|May been one of them) to make it look like Brexit was attempted, but at the last minute it fails and we remain in the corrupt EU. I see 17.4 million voters getting their vote ignored. On the TV yesterday one of the bean counters "thinks" May will be defeated by 90 votes when her "non Brexit" vote is put to Parliament. Surely if the result is anywhere near the 90 she will be toast. Then step forward - ? Angel1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockdoctor Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, RJRB said: A referendum on the death penalty is a suitable comparison which reflects the foolishness of Cameron’s original referendum. Do you want the death penalty to be re introduced ,answer yes or no.? Then any thinking person would have to decide in their own head in what circumstances a particular murderer would deserve to die. This would no doubt throw up numerous cases and opinions which would be left for someone else to sort out. Many would be saying that this is not the death penalty that I voted for,just as few who voted Brexit are going to get anything like what they hoped for. Time to think again? An increasing number think so and it illustrates the right of people to challenge this particular interpretation of Brexit which condemns the U.K. to be an outsider in Europe with less real control rather than asserting our sovereignty. Democracy in action. Don't be silly. I only mentioned the death penalty to give an example of something there hasn't been a referendum about, despite many people wanting a referendum about the death penalty, in reply to the poster who stated "We can have votes and referendums whenever the democratic people demand them, if necessary" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magilla Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, ANGELFIRE1 said: All of a sudden we have gone from Brexit means Brexit to vote for my deal or it may be that we have have another vote or remain in the EU. What *did* Brexit mean? Even for most leavers that never meant leaving the single market and certainly never meant making their lives significantly worse! Quote I suspect we are been sold a pup. You were sold a pup long before you voted, and told as much many times on here. How that wasn't and still isn't completely obvious is just beyond belief Quote Democracy as I see it is tottering on the cliff edge now, the will of the majority is in danger of been ignored. Democracy has been tottering for quite some time now. I recon remaining will have the least political and social fall out Even for those who say they want no-deal.... when questioned, turns out they don't:- Edited December 1, 2018 by Magilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 38 minutes ago, ANGELFIRE1 said: All of a sudden we have gone from Brexit means Brexit to vote for my deal or it may be that we have have another vote or remain in the EU. I suspect we are been sold a pup. Democracy as I see it is tottering on the cliff edge now, the will of the majority is in danger of been ignored. Call me cynical, but is this situation we are in been manipulated by the remain establishment (|May been one of them) to make it look like Brexit was attempted, but at the last minute it fails and we remain in the corrupt EU. I see 17.4 million voters getting their vote ignored. On the TV yesterday one of the bean counters "thinks" May will be defeated by 90 votes when her "non Brexit" vote is put to Parliament. Surely if the result is anywhere near the 90 she will be toast. Then step forward - ? Angel1. No we haven’t been sold a pup. We are now down to two realistic choices. One is May’s deal. The other is no Brexit. No deal is not a realistic option. MPs will not vote it through. The EU will pull out all the stops to avoid it. No party that had it in their manifesto would stand a chance of winning, and would trash their electoral chances for a generation if they were in power and did push no deal through. The no deal fantasy amounts to wanton economic destruction, and the idea is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litotes Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Lockdoctor said: We haven't had a referendum about bringing back the death penalty which has been asked for by our people in the past. The truth is referendums have only ever been authorised when the Government of the day strongly believe the result will go the way the Government wants. Parliament overwhelmingly voted in favour of holding the 2016 EU referendum because they expected the UK democratic people to vote to Remain in the EU. The truth now is that the people who are campaigning for another EU referendum are the people who voted Remain in 2016 and still haven't accepted the choice the democratic people made. Yes, we do know the details of the Withdrawal Agreement and the truth is the people who voted Remain in 2016 and still don't accept the result will not accept any Withdrawal Agreement on offer because they want the UK to stay in the EU. The truth is there are large numbers of our representatives in Parliament, who still don't respect the democratic referendum result and these MPs will vote against any Withdrawal Agreement on offer because they want the UK to stay in the EU. The decision should certainly not go back to the UK people to decide because the UK democratic people decided what they wanted in 2016. If our representatives in Parliament can not agree to accept the Withdrawal Agreement on offer or an amended Withdrawal Agreement then the UK should leave the EU on 29th March next year without a Brexit deal and honour the choice the democratic people made in 2016. The truth my friend is that I respect democracy and you only respect democracy when the democratic people make a choice to your own personal liking. Your truth - not mine! And repeating it ad nauseum will not make it any truer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magilla Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, Litotes said: Your truth - not mine! Didn't you know.... being poorer actually makes us richer, being isolated means we are global, division is unity, democracy means no more voting, parliament is only sovereign when the Government runs roughshod over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, I1L2T3 said: We can have votes and referendums whenever the democratic people demand them, if necessary No we cant! The democratic people can demand and shout all they like but we can only hold a referendum when parliament gives approval to hold one. As said before parliament should not allow people to dictate to them as doing so actually undermines the democratic system we have in place. Even more so in this case as it was parliament that approved and gave their backing to the referendum and also to enable A50. Edited December 1, 2018 by apelike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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