apelike Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said: A poll is certainly not reliable, but when ALL of them consistently show the same thing the chances of them being wrong are pretty remote. And yes, polls have been wrong but that is usually if they have either been carried out poorly or the prediction is too close to call and even then the actual result is still within the stated margin of error. Populists often cite the examples of the 2015 UK election, the 2016 EU referendum and Trump's election as 'polls that got it wrong. In all three cases the predictions were within a couple of percentage points either way and the results were within the published margins of error. Maybe instead of having elections we could just have polls as it would be a lot simpler and if the polls are that good then there should be no need to worry. I wonder why we dont?? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/25/dirty-little-secret-opinion-polls-general-election-why-wrong https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/revealed-pollsters-got-wrong/ 5 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said: I know exactly how our democracy works. If Cameron had passed legislation which said that if a majority of those voting, voted to leave then the UK was legally obliged to trigger Article 50 then that is what would have happened. But he didn't. He passed legislation which allowed a referendum on the matter that would serve only as an advisory poll. And that advisory referendum was also given the OK by parliament as Cameron had also promised in a pro-EU leaflet sent to all householders that the government would respect and carry out the decision. Parliament also approved A50 so no matter how you try and twist the outcome, democracy was carried out accordingly. BTW Cameron didn't pass the legislation Parliament did, and they also approved the text for the choices and who could vote. If they wanted they could have rejected the result but they didn't even after the Gina Miller case. Like it or not that IS democracy in action! Edited December 2, 2018 by apelike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 Here's Stephen Fry's take on Brexit - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, apelike said: Maybe instead of having elections we could just have polls as it would be a lot simpler and if the polls are that good then there should be no need to worry. I wonder why we dont?? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/25/dirty-little-secret-opinion-polls-general-election-why-wrong https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/revealed-pollsters-got-wrong/ And that advisory referendum was also given the OK by parliament as Cameron had also promised in a pro-EU leaflet sent to all householders that the government would respect and carry out the decision. Parliament also approved A50 so no matter how you try and twist the outcome, democracy was carried out accordingly. BTW Cameron didn't pass the legislation Parliament did, and they also approved the text for the choices and who could vote. If they wanted they could have rejected the result but they didn't even after the Gina Miller case. Like it or not that IS democracy in action! The Gina Miller case was not about trying to stop A50 but about following due legal process. The government lost their case for triggering A50 without reference to parliament, and then had to go back to parliament to get triggering A50 approved. Its a small but vital point because due legal process, and the primacy of parliament (rather than an isolated cabinet trying to use undemocratic Henry VIII-style powers) continue to be of crucial importance. Democracy had to be fought for in this process. And personally I’m proud to have made financial contributions to support the legal case. Edited December 2, 2018 by I1L2T3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 37 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said: The Gina Miller case was not about trying to stop A50 but about following due legal process. After immigration, 'regaining our democracy' was the highest concern for most leave voters. The fact that so many Brexiteers are desperate to prevent the people voting again or even parliament being allowed 'meaningful' say over the process shows just how desperate they are to cling on to their discredited referendum result. Also , many of the Rees-Smug/Bojo Brextremist group of Tory MPs were vehemently against Parliament having a say on the final deal. I assume that out of principal they will be abstaining in the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, I1L2T3 said: The Gina Miller case was not about trying to stop A50 but about following due legal process. The government lost their case for triggering A50 without reference to parliament, and then had to go back to parliament to get triggering A50 approved. I think in reality Gina Miller, a very anti-brexit campaigner, was hoping that the government would lose and also that parliament would then not sanction and allow A50 to be triggered. But as said before she did the country a great favour by taking it to to court. The reality was that parliament after that then went on and sanctioned the triggering of A50 thus making it a democratic decision enabled by an act of parliament. 31 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said: The fact that so many Brexiteers are desperate to prevent the people voting again or even parliament being allowed 'meaningful' say over the process shows just how desperate they are to cling on to their discredited referendum result. You seem to have that the wrong way round as its the remainers that do no want to respect the democratic outcome and are calling for another referendum, and parliament will get its meaningful vote. If parliament whose majority are anti-brexit want another referendum then so be it and that is for them to decide and not the people so basically no one is preventing people voting again however it will need parliament to approve one. If we do have another referendum then it should be after we have left so that democracy is upheld. Edited December 2, 2018 by apelike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 16 minutes ago, apelike said: If we do have another referendum then it should be after we have left so that democracy is upheld. That makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone, including the government itself recognises that leaving the EU will be deeply damaging to the UK. Once we leave the EU we can never return on the favourable terms we have at the moment and risk being offered a much worse deal than May is trying to peddle at the moment. It is 2018 and the majority of people now wish to remain in the EU. Why on earth should we deliberately damage our future because 38% of the electorate voted to leave in a discredited referendum over two and a half years ago. Like I said. It makes no sense whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 18 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said: It is 2018 and the majority of people now wish to remain in the EU. But as previously stated the majority of people have not been asked their opinion so that statement cannot be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 9 minutes ago, apelike said: But as previously stated the majority of people have not been asked their opinion so that statement cannot be true. Cool! Then let's ask them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 Just now, Top Cats Hat said: Cool! Then let's ask them. And how do you propose to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 9 minutes ago, apelike said: And how do you propose to do that? A people's vote? Another referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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