apelike Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, melthebell said: funny thing is Brexiter Michael Goves saying there could be one if ministers dont back Mays deal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46416591 Project fear or fact? A few quotes from that link: "But a referendum can only be held if the government legislates for one and a majority of MPs vote for it." "Michael Gove claimed the Leave campaign would probably win a fresh referendum by an even larger margin but holding one would "damage faith in democracy and rip apart the social fabric" of the country. Many Leave voters would see it is a "condescending" move by the political establishment, who would effectively be saying people were "too thick to make a decision" the first time around, he told Andrew Marr." Project fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockdoctor Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, apelike said: Now what happens if remain win by the same margin as leave did? Do we then hold another referendum? Top Cats Hat didn't answer that question. Top Cats Hat won't be posting any of his statistics showing the majority of the people didn't vote to remain . More importantly there won't be another referendum because Parliament would never vote in favour of holding another referendum, if the 2016 result is overturned. Edited December 2, 2018 by Lockdoctor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 6 minutes ago, melthebell said: Project fear or fact? Project Tory Fear! lol Tell the DUP that there will be a General Election and a Corbynite government could bounce the north into a United Ireland. Tell the Brextremists that losing the vote means the whole Brexit experiment could fall. Tell the Remainers that losing the vote will mean a no deal Brexit and economic chaos. Unfortunately for Teresa May, not of the above arguments will persuade more than 10-15 Tory MPs to change their minds. If she loses by 100 votes or more she is toast and her deal is dead. If she loses by 50 votes or more Labour will probably go for a vote of no confidence and the deal is dead. If she loses by less than 50 votes the deal may survive if renegotiated with the EU and is put to the house again. Current forecasting says she will lose by around 90 votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJRB Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, apelike said: A few quotes from that link: "But a referendum can only be held if the government legislates for one and a majority of MPs vote for it." "Michael Gove claimed the Leave campaign would probably win a fresh referendum by an even larger margin but holding one would "damage faith in democracy and rip apart the social fabric" of the country. Many Leave voters would see it is a "condescending" move by the political establishment, who would effectively be saying people were "too thick to make a decision" the first time around, he told Andrew Marr." Project fact! I did not see the Gove interview,but from what you quote it’s just more of the same spin. The only “thick or dumb “argument would in my opinion only apply to anyone who fails to take into account all the available information when taking such a momentous decision. Most people who have followed the debate must agree that they are much better informed than they were in 2016.This includes our MPs. We may still vote as we see fit,but from a considered point of view rather than sheer bloody mindedness. Edited December 2, 2018 by RJRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 As a remainer I’d accept a deal that say put us into EEA or EFTA, Norway-style. We would no longer be members of the EU and nobody could say that did not meet the question asked at the referendum. It is the only sensible and logical move. I don’t think it should be end-dated, with a move later to leave EEA/EFTA if it was in our interests. It’s worth reminding Brexiters there were plenty of them promoting the experience of the Swiss and Norwegians before the referendum. There were often protracted debates on this forum about how Liechtenstein had successfully shut down free movement, with plenty of Brexiters on here advocating that as a pathway for the UK People have short memories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 3 hours ago, RJRB said: I did not see the Gove interview,but from what you quote it’s just more of the same spin. I did see it. He didn't look a bit comfortable and I doubt he convinced anyone. The guy's a snake and by rights he should have resigned along with Raab, McVey etc. He obviously sees his best chance for advancement as sticking with May for the moment which means trying to sell a deal he clearly doesn't believe in. Climbing the greasy pole in the Tory party must be real tough at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockdoctor Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 12 hours ago, I1L2T3 said: As a remainer I’d accept a deal that say put us into EEA or EFTA, Norway-style. We would no longer be members of the EU and nobody could say that did not meet the question asked at the referendum. It is the only sensible and logical move. I don’t think it should be end-dated, with a move later to leave EEA/EFTA if it was in our interests. It’s worth reminding Brexiters there were plenty of them promoting the experience of the Swiss and Norwegians before the referendum. There were often protracted debates on this forum about how Liechtenstein had successfully shut down free movement, with plenty of Brexiters on here advocating that as a pathway for the UK People have short memories It's not really a surprise as some who has never respected the democratic referendum result that you would accept a Norway style agreement where free movement of people continue. Remain lost the democratic EU referendum so it should be up to the winning side which is Leave what kind of agreement is acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said: It's not really a surprise as some who has never respected the democratic referendum result that you would accept a Norway style agreement where free movement of people continue. Remain lost the democratic EU referendum so it should be up to the winning side which is Leave what kind of agreement is acceptable. The question asked was a simple yes/no to EU membership. With the Norway option we would not be EU members. A timely reminder that the ERG whose Brexit you seem to favour most are a tiny minority, representing only 8% of MPs Edited December 3, 2018 by I1L2T3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockdoctor Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 36 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said: The question asked was a simple yes/no to EU membership. With the Norway option we would not be EU members. A timely reminder that the ERG whose Brexit you seem to favour most are a tiny minority, representing only 8% of MPs A timely reminder that Mrs May our Prime Minister, who represents 100% of the UK people stated after the Saltzburg summit in September that remaining in the Single Market and Customs Union would make a mockery of the EU referendum result. At the moment the ERG and the DUP are the only MPs who are fully respecting the democratic EU referendum result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Car Boot Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 18 hours ago, melthebell said: A people's vote? Another referendum? We had a People's Vote in June 2016, a referendum. Why not respect the democratic outcome of that vote? 18 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said: Or a general election where one major party stands on a 'Sack Brexit off and return to normality' ticket. Your 'normality' means institutionalised impoverishment of the weak and vulnerable by the rich. We've had this for the last 45 years under EU rule. You can stick your 'normality'. We want change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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