The Consequences of Brexit [part 5] Read 1st post before posting

[Top Cats Hat]

19 minutes ago, OPEN BORDERS said:

To get out before the EU self destructs.

Apart from that being very unlikely, as one of the key members of the EU, Britain has a responsibility to stay and ensure its survival at a time when right wing populism is on the rise world wide.

 

With an autocratic crank in both the White House and the Kremlin, and dangerously unstable leaders in Brazil, the Philippines, Turkey and North Korea, it is more vital than ever that we have a strong and united Europe.

[OPEN BORDERS]

1 minute ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Apart from that being very unlikely, as one of the key members of the EU, Britain has a responsibility to stay and ensure its survival at a time when right wing populism is on the rise world wide.

 

With an autocratic crank in both the White House and the Kremlin, and dangerously unstable leaders in Brazil, the Philippines, Turkey and North Korea, it is more vital than ever that we have a strong and united Europe.

That's your opinion TCH, I beg to differ.

Europe as a continent has never been in so much trouble since Hitler came to power.. Peoples national identity is being watered down - and European folk are waking up.

Recent votes in elections in many countries tell us that quite clearly.

Lets get out now.

[Top Cats Hat]

9 minutes ago, OPEN BORDERS said:

Peoples national identity is being watered down

You refer to that as though it is a bad thing???? 

[OPEN BORDERS]

3 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

You refer to that as though it is a bad thing???? 

Of course !

French like being ;French'

Germans like being 'German' etc etc

Whats wrong with that ?

Europeans in general are happy being 'Europeans' 

We just don't want to become a European 'Super State' with OPEN BORDERS !

And having our National identities watered down by nutcases like that Verofstaht bloke.

All the EU wants is more power. less democracy.

 

[Top Cats Hat]

4 minutes ago, OPEN BORDERS said:

Of course !

French like being ;French'

Germans like being 'German' etc etc

Whats wrong with that ?

And who is stopping them?

 

[AntiBrexit]

When Cameron decided to do an referendum on the UK's EU membership he really thought he could take on UKIP and Tory hard right take the bull by the horns. The one factor he failed to understand was how angry people were with his policies notable on Welfare which has hit people hard I think some people voted leave has a protest vote he wanted to stay in the EU so some voted for Brexit to hit back. Others voted for various anti EU reasons. 

 

Now were at an Brexit cross roads no one has the answer on what to do it's time for the unthinkable the government needs to tell the people the turth no more slogans or half turths. Hardline Brexiteers just churn out the same old same old anti EU stories but yet to give an plan that beats EU membership the reason is simple they can't. I think some seem to think were still this great Imperial power that others nation's look up to they don't. Brexit has made us the laughing stock on the international stage like an spoilt child that's thinks we can demand what we want and foolishly believing we can get it. Sorry Brexiteers the world doesn't work like that we need the EU now more than ever for our economic and political well been yes I agree the EU needs reform but we can't be part of that if we're outside of the EU another factor  is the threat from the East is real make no mistake Putin is watching and rubbing his hands with satisfaction the demise of the EU would be a win win for him. 

[*_ash_*]

4 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said:

First of all, you couldn't buy my vote for a couple of hundred quid as Brexit has already cost me nearly £6,000 in lost dollar and €uro savings and is likely to cost me much more in the years ahead as most of my work is outside the UK.

Well that answers a lot, and why you are so hostile to people like me.

 

You categorise me, and others as the same thing. When people do this based on sex or race, they are sexist or racist, yet somehow remainers (also using same generalising) are allowed to use the same tactics. You all do it in here - the main remainers I mean.

 

I wrote anti-blair posts for years,  I still dislike the EU as I have since the Blair days. In fact I've bored people to death with it for years.

 

No one ever called me a racist; a xenophobe; a rag paper reader; influenced and pushed into a vote... It was reasonable dialogue.

 

You guys should look in the mirror (not the paper)

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The main reason why I would never vote for Brexit is because the four major grounds for leaving the EU do not persuade me in the slightest that we would be better off outside.

 

1. Immigration.

 

I've never had a problem with it. This country is built on immigration and immigrants are a net benefit to our economy. I work more outside the UK than in it, particularly in Europe so I'm not really in a position to moan about freedom of movement. I've also benefitted massively from various EU hospitals particularly the excellent French health service so again, I'm in no position to complain about EU citizens using our facilities.

Immigration as a word and concept, I also have no problem with. My ancestors emigrated here once.

 

When it comes to Caroline Lucas type immigration, then I have issues.

 

So I fit somewhere in between these two.

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2. Sovereignty.

 

Anyone who lives in a country with an unelected head of state and an unelected second chamber of Parliament then complains about the EU, where at least we have an equal vote, needs their head looking at.

I don't mind the british royal family, so straight away, I fit into a perception by the other half, that I'm an old conservative (not party meaning)

 

In general, I don't like like corps, big groups of different people with different lives, so large communists states. I'm almost naturally anti-EU just based on how different all the countries are. I think you could say the only 'successful' united states, IS the United States of A, and though I liked the place when I went, it's certainly no utopia of large groups of 'countries/states'

 

Huge divides there, and here and other countries too.

 

I wrote and will show you my posts in the run ups, and my opinion is that long term the EU will collapse under its own strength. I said we would be in the **** for a while, but long term, we will be better off. I still think that now.

 

 

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3. EU contribution.

 

Membership of the EU is of enormous economic benefit to the UK and the £8.6 billion we contribute each year represents great value for money. With the rebate, we have pretty much the best deal of any EU member state. It also represents a fraction of one percent of our GDP so those who talk of 'huge amounts' of money sent to Brussells every year need to brush up on their maths!

In other words we propping it up? (with Germany and france)

 

The whole thing was better as just a single market IMO, but they won't allow this obviously. I think it started off right, and I would probably have voted in the first referendum to join EEC, (I was only about 8 months old though, lol)

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4. EU bureaucracy

 

The EU is overbureacratic and this needs to be dealt with but we don't need to leave because of it. We actually need to stop acting like adolescent outsiders and play a full grown up role in all EU decision making. So many Leave supporters on here keep referring to the EU as 'them' rather than 'us' which gives the game away a bit. They either they don't actually understand what the EU is, or they see Europe as 'foreign'.

 

If anyone has any other more convincing arguments in favour of leaving the EU, I'd love to hear them. 😀

 

 

These workers rights etc. don't mean anything to me. We can write our own rules, and vote for who writes the best. I would prefer more than 2 parties though, I've never voted for either. I'd probably prefer a fairer voting system too, and someone could propose that.

 

I'm just not one for big companies. I've worked for them, and it's all sly bull**** talk to make them better off, and I see the EU as similar but includes rules making too.

 

I've used TUPE twice, and in the first I noticed a flaw, and the flaw was used in the second one.

2 hours ago, OPEN BORDERS said:

To get out before the EU self destructs.

It will.

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Apart from that being very unlikely, as one of the key members of the EU, Britain has a responsibility to stay and ensure its survival at a time when right wing populism is on the rise world wide.

 

With an autocratic crank in both the White House and the Kremlin, and dangerously unstable leaders in Brazil, the Philippines, Turkey and North Korea, it is more vital than ever that we have a strong and united Europe.

Newspaper talk.

 

If anything, it's things like the EU that cause things like extremism.

 

You still not answered my post on your views on fairness of the Treaty of Versailles.

1 hour ago, OPEN BORDERS said:

That's your opinion TCH, I beg to differ.

Europe as a continent has never been in so much trouble since Hitler came to power.. Peoples national identity is being watered down - and European folk are waking up.

Recent votes in elections in many countries tell us that quite clearly.

Lets get out now.

Though I don't know your views, this is certainly right, in bold.

 

Identity is very important. A lot of my work friends feel like they are British, but not accepted as such,, and yet when they go to their ancestral home, they are considered an outsider too. People should be proud of their heritage, and allowed to. A feeling of suppression on one's identity, leads to issues, when groups form.

 

It's not just right-wing too, though, you obviously don't see this. I saw on the top 10 BBC sites (I allow myself to view these!) - there was a clip of the yellow people in france - and it showed, far-left and far-right joining forces. Granted it was only a short clip of a few people, but if you want to worry about anything, it's far-left and far-right getting chummy. The political spectrum isn't a straight line, it's a curve. Most of us in society hang around the front of this circle, that we can left/right/centre etc. Right around the circle on the other side are the far left and far right. Really quite close in thoughts on societies.

 

I think a lot of the members here just read left/right wing rags and tv news. I know it, because they use words and terms that media make up, and I don't recognise. (18 months into almost complete news ban)

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

You refer to that as though it is a bad thing???? 

It is, see above. Humans need identities, not to live in some homogeneous idealised communist dilution of life.

 

We'd all be living in concrete boxes in the sky, if this society wins.

1 hour ago, OPEN BORDERS said:

Of course !

French like being ;French'

Germans like being 'German' etc etc

Whats wrong with that ?

Europeans in general are happy being 'Europeans' 

We just don't want to become a European 'Super State' with OPEN BORDERS !

And having our National identities watered down by nutcases like that Verofstaht bloke.

All the EU wants is more power. less democracy.

 

 

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

And who is stopping them?

 

last 2 quotes couldn't delete, but nothing more to add

Edited December 15, 2018 by *_ash_*

[I1L2T3]

2 hours ago, OPEN BORDERS said:

To get out before the EU self destructs.

It won’t self destruct. Not a chance.

 

The level of economic, social and cultural integration means it just won’t happen. Think NI border issues times 10,000 in terms of complexity and you aren’t even remotely close.

 

Stop the fantasies

[*_ash_*]

16 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said:

It won’t self destruct. Not a chance.

 

The level of economic, social and cultural integration means it just won’t happen. Think NI border issues times 10,000 in terms of complexity and you aren’t even remotely close.

 

Stop the fantasies

You are one of the people calling brexiteers 'idiots group brigade' too I1L2,

 

 

my I remind you of this post, and exchange we had pre-vote.

 

You said you were 50/50 and here write that you based your vote on a post you didn't like... 

 

Why didn't you tell me why it wouldn't self-destruct at the time? You just asked me for evidence that it WOULD collapse, which I obviously couldn't/can't.

 

You also say in later posts to me in the same couple of pages, that you are highly 'euro-sceptic', but it seems not now? - 'Not a chance' seems pretty confident.

 

I'm not isolating you here btw, I don't use the others' nonsense posts and attribute you in this too, but it just seems a little bit of a change of thought.

 

 

 

 

 

[Top Cats Hat]

3 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

my I remind you of this post, and exchange we had pre-vote.

 

 

Whoa!

 

That is some serious stalking! 😳