I1L2T3 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, hobinfoot said: My wife is one of the most fair minded people I know and will listen to any argument and give that argument a fair hearing. But she says another referendum isn't what she could support because it would damage the democratic process. She voted remain has did I but wouldn't take part in a second vote and probably won't vote again. It’s the complete opposite. It enhances the democratic process. It corrects the mistake in the way that the 2016 referendum was framed. It allows us a campaign free of illegality this time. It exposes the fact that Cameron made false promises, and confirms that governments can’t bind subsequent governments. It also would reaffirm the advisory nature of the referendum. The very definition of democracy focuses on the view of the people now, not on out of date views, and not especially on some kind of mystical idea of the importance of dead voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockdoctor Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 20 minutes ago, ez8004 said: Hahaha. That won’t happen. The US and China are among 20 countries blocking the UK’s fast track application as an independent WTO member. How are you going to square this circle? The UK was a founding member of the WTO. WTO rules or law will automatically apply, if the UK leave the EU without a deal. 22 minutes ago, hobinfoot said: My wife is one of the most fair minded people I know and will listen to any argument and give that argument a fair hearing. But she says another referendum isn't what she could support because it would damage the democratic process. She voted remain has did I but wouldn't take part in a second vote and probably won't vote again if does take place. I share your wife's views. Your wife sounds like a very fair person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padders Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, RJRB said: I’m one of the most fair minded people that I know and cannot see why a democratic vote eventually based on the whatever is the acceptable deal for the Brexit camp v Remain is deemed undemocratic. I am absolutely prepared to accept the result based on knowledge and could vote either way depending on what is on offer. Other than that it’s just like Hughie Green,open the box or take the money. Michael Miles...….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, I1L2T3 said: Creating more mess is not a way to resolve a mess. Like throwing petrol on a fire. A new vote would not overturn the 2016 result. It would just reflect the current will of the democratic people. Whilst I agree with your 2nd paragraph, I disagree with the first: the scale of what needs fixing both in U.K. politics and in the U.K. public’s knowledge and understanding of the EU, is such as to require shock therapy. That necessarily begins with the ‘shock’, ie a first-hand experience of ‘what did the EU ever do for us’ through losing it, at least short-term. You could call it a catharsis. The British electorate, suitably informed about the probity and diligence of those peddling a better life outside the EU, by actual life experience outside EU membership (including inter alia economic life under WTO rules), can then exercise its collective wisdom and power, about the probity and plans of tomorrow’s campaigning MPs, at the ballot box. 28 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said: The UK was a founding member of the WTO. WTO rules or law will automatically apply, if the UK leave the EU without a deal. Wrong. The U.K. will be free to apply and follow these WTO rules, but there is no guarantee of any reciprocity by any other trading counter-party, until and unless the UK’s quotas and tariff levels are agreed by all other WTO members: any one of them can hold the UK to ransom in Geneva. And the largest already are. This being the reason why a country as obscure and insignificant as Moldova can torpedo the UK’s WTO negotiations (suggest you Google up recent articles about that one, the choice of country in my sentence is not random), as surely as Ireland or Spain can veto the final U.K.-EU deal in 2 years’ time. The U.K. badly needs the EU -one of the top 3 largest kids on that particular block- to have its back in Geneva. Very badly. So here’s an idea: better start being nice Edited December 17, 2018 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 45 minutes ago, ez8004 said: Hahaha. That won’t happen. The US and China are among 20 countries blocking the UK’s fast track application as an independent WTO member. How are you going to square this circle? and our xenophobic policies are coming home to roost: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/how-tiny-moldova-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion Countries remember how we treat their citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansheff Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Well doesn't that top it all, just heard on the news Captain "cockup" Cameron is offering advice to May on Brexit. Thats a bit rich from the man who caused it all then jumped ship. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lottiecass Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 14 hours ago, Dardandec said: Leaving with no deal will trash peoples livelihoods, a heck of a lot of them will be people who didn't want to leave in the first place. You ain't going to get a "no deal" scenario, its not sensible. You're gonna get the deal on the table, or another referendum. 6 hours ago, I1L2T3 said: Indeed. And any party that pushes through a no deal Brexit will not be trusted again potentially for decades. Tories and Labour take note. We’re in this mess because of both parties. I was just commenting on tch's opinions that he puts as truth ,there will not be another referendum May is determined on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, lottiecass said: I was just commenting on tch's opinions that he puts as truth ,there will not be another referendum May is determined on that point. She doesn't get to decide, Parliament does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lottiecass Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 2 hours ago, I1L2T3 said: Creating more mess is not a way to resolve a mess. Like throwing petrol on a fire. A new vote would not overturn the 2016 result. It would just reflect the current will of the democratic people. So why bother with another? clinging to staying in the eu is the main reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidonica Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 The owner of Wetherspoons has told the Daily politics show that if we leave with no deal, nothing will change except for the price of food going down!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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