Grenfell Tower effigy burning

[Cyclone]

I'm not even convinced that making it public would be a crime. Offensive yes, to a lot of people, yes, but causing distress... Seems like a stretch.

 

"causing harassment, alarm or distress by the use of threatening, abusive or insulting words or signs."

 

It wasn't threatening, abusive or insulting... So it doesn't fall under the public order offence immediately. And for the first sentence, it's definitely not harassment, nor alarm, so distress is the only possibly and I think that's a stretch.

I just don't think it qualifies as a public order offence under this description.

 

As to hate speech... Well, that seems like a stretch as well, unless what they said rather than what they did makes it such.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Cyclone

[melthebell]

As I see it, making and burning the model, or even recording it for private consumption, are unlikely to be a crime. Very bad taste, but not a crime.

 

Posting the recording and so making it public might be, though.

 

I don’t know for a fact, it’s just my opinion.

 

It would be ironic, though, if those posting it with a sense of outrage were the guilty ones.

What is a public order Offence?

Threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in a public place. Section 6 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 makes it an offence for any person in a public place to use threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with the intention of causing a breach of the peace.25 Jul 2016

 

as has been said numerous times, doing it in private is ok...unless somebody witnesses it and complains.

Posting it on the internet pushes it into the realms of public.

 

---------- Post added 07-11-2018 at 11:42 ----------

 

I'm not even convinced that making it public would be a crime. Offensive yes, to a lot of people, yes, but causing distress... Seems like a stretch.

i had a single swear word on my jacket sleeve once, the only person who took offence was a copper (in the peace gardens) i told him he couldnt do me if he said take it off. so he said take it off, so i did.

 

I still got a court summons a month later.

 

It got laughed out of court and the solicitor (the one up pitsmoor) didnt charge me.

 

so it does happen.

 

i'd reckon theres far more offence caused in this case than mine, specially as its on the internet and far more people can see it. and people died. and it DOES have racial overtones despite what people said so could go down as a hate crime.

[Cyclone]

It got laughed out of court though because it hadn't caused harassment, alarm or distress.

[melthebell]

It got laughed out of court though because it hadn't caused harassment, alarm or distress.

yup

 

although im sure those words could be applied to this case especially if they are outed as having racist views.

I didnt pick on a certain type of person, it was a general "humerous" sentence with a swear word in it.

They have picked on a certain part of the community (mostly dead) colouring the people in the windows brown could be seen as laughing at people who died because of their race and colour.

[helloitsonly]

as has been said numerous times, doing it in private is ok...unless somebody witnesses it and complains.

Posting it on the internet pushes it into the realms of public.

 

---------- Post added 07-11-2018 at 11:42 ----------

 

i had a single swear word on my jacket sleeve once, the only person who took offence was a copper (in the peace gardens) i told him he couldnt do me if he said take it off. so he said take it off, so i did.

 

I still got a court summons a month later.

 

It got laughed out of court and the solicitor (the one up pitsmoor) didnt charge me.

 

so it does happen.

 

i'd reckon theres far more offence caused in this case than mine, specially as its on the internet and far more people can see it. and people died. and it DOES have racial overtones despite what people said so could go down as a hate crime.

 

why on earth would you have a swear word on your jacket sleeve??? was it to attract attention?

[melthebell]

why on earth would you have a swear word on your jacket sleeve??? was it to attract attention?

its a daft picture off a record label from a crusty punk band, a mate painted it on, brilliantly done. Funnily enough its also available on t shirts. It also features a well known childrens tv character from years gone by.

[Top Cats Hat]

Offensive yes, to a lot of people, yes, but causing distress... Seems like a stretch.

 

 

I'm not sure it was intended to cause distress to anyone in Sheffield.

 

The distress it caused was to people who were much closer to the event and I don't mean just survivors or relatives of the dead but those whose lives have been effected by what happened. You only have to watch the people giving evidence to the enquiry and you will see very few who managed to give their testimony without breaking down at some point. This applied to long serving senior fire and police officers as well as survivors and communications rooms staff who had to field the calls from people who were just waiting to die in the blaze.

 

The fire service in particular has record numbers of members undergoing counselling and a number have left the service on medical grounds. Some never went back to work after that night. The local school has reopened with shutters on the classroom windows to block out the view of the remains of the tower. This isn't 'snowflakism'. These kids were having recurring nightmares about the night of the fire and some of the younger ones obsessively draw pictures of the burning building, smoke and dead bodies.

 

And this is still very raw, and many will never get over it. A woman who escaped the fire could barely speak when interviewed about the bonfire night incident and had tears in her eyes the whole time.

 

Are you seriously trying to claim that this has caused no distress?

 

Seriously?

[Baron99]

Well there are precedents under the Public Order Act:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12664346

 

But here's a bit of clarity(?);

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46112026

Edited November 7, 2018 by Baron99
Amendments

[mancmart]

Get real, people will always make sick jokes about any current in the news item just ignore it, most people on Nov 5th were celebrating the disembowelling and burning to death of an anti government plotter.

 

---------- Post added 06-11-2018 at 16:34 ----------

 

 

Loads of folk in the pub last night thought it was funny

Glad I don't go in your pub.

If families including kids burning to death is funny, then you frequent some not so pleasant places

 

---------- Post added 08-11-2018 at 01:22 ----------

 

When the good folk of Grimethorpe burnt an effigy of ex PM Margret Thatcher on a bonfire I cant remember an outcry as big as this one the police took no action ,there were no arrests and it was shown on the BBC news. Double standards all round.

 

Rightly or wrongly, Thatcher was hated by some people due to her actions in politics.

What did innocent residents of a tower block do to be mocked?

Not double standards at all.

 

---------- Post added 08-11-2018 at 01:29 ----------

 

London has changed since Lawrence was murdered. It’s become a blood bath city. It use to be know for its Theatres and Museums now it’s stabbings and murders on a daily basis and terrorist attacks.

I do believe they will be a target for vigilantes, the police have already got their work cut out without having to protect them.

 

So don't protect them then, they'll be fine..

[Olive]

As to hate speech... Well, that seems like a stretch as well, unless what they said rather than what they did makes it such.

 

According to the legal expert in an article I read about this yesterday, although the bar for hate crimes is quite low, generally the person(s) who are affected need to be present at the time of the offence, so it's unlikely that this could be used to prosecute.

 

---------- Post added 08-11-2018 at 08:55 ----------

 

Teenager who threw flour and eggs at disabled woman and then boasted of attack is pictured for the first time

 

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/02/teenager-who-threw-flour-and-eggs-at-disabled-woman-and-then-boasted-of-attack-is-pictured-for-the-first-time-8098414/?ito=cbshare

 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

 

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/02/teenager-who-threw-flour-and-eggs-at-disabled-woman-and-then-boasted-of-attack-is-pictured-for-the-first-time-8098414/?ito=cbshare

 

 

This is the first picture of the teenage thug who laughed at a disabled woman as he pelted her with flour and eggs while she sat on a park bench. Cohan Semple was among a group of youths who launched the ‘despicable’ attack on the vulnerable woman and then posted a picture on social media. Semple, 18, appeared in court yesterday and admitted his part in the humiliating attack in Bury St Edmunds that caused an international outcry in July. Date: 01 NOV 2018 Location: Ipswich Youth Court. MINIMUM FEE ONLINE OR PAPER ??150.00 Cohan Semple (18) who pleaded guilty at Ipswich Youth Court to covering a woman in flour and eggs in an attack in Bury St Edmunds in July 2018. N.B: None of the other accused can be iddentified because they are under age. Cohan Semple has been unmasked as the person who posted footage on social media of the sickening egg and flour attack on a vulnerable woman (Picture: Eastnews Press Agency) Four other teenagers, who cannot be named for legal reasons because of their age, have also admitted their guilt. The court heard the boys were seen laughing and smiling next to Janice Morris, 49, after they had covered her head to toe in flour. The picture was posted on Snapchat by Semple for his group of 25 contacts to see.

 

 

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/02/teenager-who-threw-flour-and-eggs-at-disabled-woman-and-then-boasted-of-attack-is-pictured-for-the-first-time-8098414/?ito=cbshare

 

Why hasn't this got traction with the twitter outraged, social media, etc, etc, seems to be a hierarchy of oppression, and no, i am not downplaying the OP, but its a valid question. Disabled and sick people truly are invisible.

 

I think you must have been out of the country when this happened. It was plastered all over the press and the internet. There was (predictably and deservedly in this case) much outrage.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Olive