Northern Rail strikes

[ECCOnoob]

32 minutes ago, Eccy Beach said:

I don't think having a go at Grayling makes anyone a Tory Basher - most people can see he is incompetent, including lots from his own backbenches. He left the prison and probation services in meltdown and has now taken his trail of devastation to transport, not just linked to the railways.

 

Absolutely the rail unions sometimes go too far, but to lay the blame for the state of the railways at their door is ludicrous.

 

It wasn't them that privatised the railways, allowing Northern's owners - German state railway, to profiteer in this country to subsidise state-owned rail travel in Germany. 

I didn't lay all the blame at their door - but I will not accept that the unions arn't a big contributor to the problems.     Problems particarly involving disruptions to operations, delays to modernisation programmes and to the big black hole in the bank balance.

 

Privatisation has been a thing for approaching 25 years and under the control of at least 5 different political leaderships.  Even Labour had 13 of those 25 years to sort it out if they deemed it such a mess - they they?     Errrm.... NO.     Dont think we can push all the faults on Grayling for that can we.

 

I certainly dont think going back to Ye Olde British Rail would be much of an improvement either.    If government incompetence is the problem here as people keep suggesting - why the hell would we want to hand over all control back to them.    That would surely be a disaster. 

 

 

[Hook]

4 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

What safety is compromised?   This issue has been addressed numerous times.

 

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/2145-government-commitment-for-a-second-person-to-be-retained-on-northern-services

 

David Brown, Managing Director at Northern, said: “It’s welcome news that the Government has confirmed that a second person will be retained on board our trains...."

"...Any remaining concerns about safety, security or accessibility have now been answered – there will be a second person on-board to meet customers’ needs in those areas, and in the other vital customer service work they do..."

 

I ask again.  What exactly is RMTs problem?    Why do they still have a reason to strike?  

 

If the RMT seriously expect some sort of crystal ball guarantee from the company they will never ever consider job losses at any point and under any circumstances in the future, then they are competely deluded and unreasonable.     What company can do that?   Who knows what developments in technology and delivery methods will be introduced.   Who knows what changes we the public will embrace and take as normality.    Jesus tonight, for Northen, they may not even have a franchise after 2025 so what exactly are they supposed to do.

 

Like I said early RMT bully boys causing maximum disruption to passengers.

Rather than referring to a press release from

the company which can hardly be referred to as impartial (and ignoring the fact that the second person on the train would NOT be safety critical and therefore unable to carry out the majority of duties a guard does and which are probably completely unaware of) have a look at the response from Transport for the North which is an independent body: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/28/northern-rail-plan-to-remove-train-guards-faces-statutory-opposition

 

They’re saying that Northern shouldn’t be trying to remove the Guard and it isn’t part of their franchise agreement to get rid of the guard. 

[Annie Bynnol]

6 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

I didn't lay all the blame at their door - but I will not accept that the unions arn't a big contributor to the problems.     Problems particarly involving disruptions to operations, delays to modernisation programmes and to the big black hole in the bank balance.

 

Privatisation has been a thing for approaching 25 years and under the control of at least 5 different political leaderships.  Even Labour had 13 of those 25 years to sort it out if they deemed it such a mess - they they?     Errrm.... NO.     Dont think we can push all the faults on Grayling for that can we.

 

I certainly dont think going back to Ye Olde British Rail would be much of an improvement either.    If government incompetence is the problem here as people keep suggesting - why the hell would we want to hand over all control back to them.    That would surely be a disaster. 

 

 

Most would imagine that Privatisation of the railway would mean fare competition, control of the timetable, purchasing trains, maintain and improving track and stations and adding carriages when required, profit and risk- none of which happens.

 

 The railway is already controlled by the Government and uses the current structure to avoid criticism and legal obligation.

It uses the TOC franchise system to give the illusion of independence and competition.

Crucially the Government controls money and debt, allowing unfair bidding, allowing breaches of contract, ignoring competition law, avoidance of tax rules and passing laws that allow the TOCs to bypass laws relating to H&S, disability, safety and the environment.

 

Government policy regarding the railway has not significantly changed since 1968 when Beeching plan was completed by Labour.

Minimal investment in the regions and using national taxes and InterCity profits to subsidise rail in the South East.

 

Nobody wants the current system  of direct Government control  or a return to BR. A commercial railway has not been viable since 1928.

However the inability of any party/union/regions/us etc. to look at successful operation overseas and to be held responsible for adoption/adaptation means a railway and its customers in limbo.  

 

 

[WaveyDavey]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 1:21 PM, ECCOnoob said:

What safety is compromised?   This issue has been addressed numerous times.

 

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/2145-government-commitment-for-a-second-person-to-be-retained-on-northern-services

 

David Brown, Managing Director at Northern, said: “It’s welcome news that the Government has confirmed that a second person will be retained on board our trains...."

"...Any remaining concerns about safety, security or accessibility have now been answered – there will be a second person on-board to meet customers’ needs in those areas, and in the other vital customer service work they do..."

 

I ask again.  What exactly is RMTs problem?    Why do they still have a reason to strike?  

 

If the RMT seriously expect some sort of crystal ball guarantee from the company they will never ever consider job losses at any point and under any circumstances in the future, then they are competely deluded and unreasonable.     What company can do that?   Who knows what developments in technology and delivery methods will be introduced.   Who knows what changes we the public will embrace and take as normality.    Jesus tonight, for Northen, they may not even have a franchise after 2025 so what exactly are they supposed to do.

 

Like I said early RMT bully boys causing maximum disruption to passengers.

I take it from your posts that you think the guard just opens and closes the doors and checks tickets?????

 

As far as I'm aware the suggested 2nd member of staff the TOC have spoken about will only be there to help with passenger security and queries etc.... and to help people with disabilities on and off the train...... 

 

With you seeming to know a lot about it from the TOCs perspective what are the plans for the safety critical aspects of the guards job? You do realise if there is ever an incident which brings your train to a stop or it fails and is unable to move the guard along with the driver have to carry out protection measures which include laying down detonators in either direction so as to stop another train in an emergency.

 

Do you really think these new lower paid members of staff will be trained to the same safety critical standards and therefore carrying out this work? No it will be left to the driver alone to carry this out which obviously will take him twice as long as it would at present with two members of staff.

 

 

But of course you knew all this didn't you.  

[ECCOnoob]

I take it you have never travelled on Thameslink or the Tube or the DLR or Scotrail or C2C or Chiltern or the many other DOO rail routes in Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, USA or Canada.

 

Yeah yeah I get it.   Without a guard everyone on board will die.   You and the RMT keep telling yourselves that.  

 

Nothing more than the RMT stirring the pot.   Well publicised sources show perfectly safe operations but oh no, the RMT just dismissed it and banged on about impartiality.   Well, what about RMT's impartiality eh?      I know which expert source I would rather trust.

Rail Safety and Standards Board:

"We have 30 years of data which we have analysed. We have found that the driver performing the task does not increase the risk to passengers at all."

"We have published several research projects over the last 15 years on various aspects of DOO on passenger trains. None of these pieces of work has identified any increased risk from dispatching a train without a guard being present – providing the correct procedures have been followed. In fact, the removal of any possible miscommunication, which could exist between driver and guard could, potentially, deliver some safety benefits. If we had found evidence to suggest that DOO was not safe when done correctly, we would say so."

Office for Rail and Road:

Trains with doors operated by drivers (known in the industry as ‘Driver Only Operation’) have been in operation in Great Britain for more than 30 years. ORR has scrutinised this approach, and our inspectors are satisfied that with suitable equipment, proper procedures and competent staff in place, it is a safe method of working.   https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/08/18/rssb-no-evidence-of-increased-risk-from-doo http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2016/orrs-statement-on-driver-only-operation

Edited January 6, 2019 by ECCOnoob

[Resident]

2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

I take it you have never travelled on Thameslink or the Tube or the DLR or Scotrail or C2C or Chiltern or the many other DOO rail routes in Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, USA or Canada.

 

Yeah yeah I get it.   Without a guard everyone on board will die.   You and the RMT keep telling yourselves that.  

 

Nothing more than the RMT stirring the pot.   Well publicised sources show perfectly safe operations but oh no, the RMT just dismissed it and banged on about impartiality.   Well, what about RMT's impartiality eh?      I know which expert source I would rather trust.

Rail Safety and Standards Board:

"We have 30 years of data which we have analysed. We have found that the driver performing the task does not increase the risk to passengers at all."

"We have published several research projects over the last 15 years on various aspects of DOO on passenger trains. None of these pieces of work has identified any increased risk from dispatching a train without a guard being present – providing the correct procedures have been followed. In fact, the removal of any possible miscommunication, which could exist between driver and guard could, potentially, deliver some safety benefits. If we had found evidence to suggest that DOO was not safe when done correctly, we would say so."

Office for Rail and Road:

Trains with doors operated by drivers (known in the industry as ‘Driver Only Operation’) have been in operation in Great Britain for more than 30 years. ORR has scrutinised this approach, and our inspectors are satisfied that with suitable equipment, proper procedures and competent staff in place, it is a safe method of working.   https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/08/18/rssb-no-evidence-of-increased-risk-from-doo http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2016/orrs-statement-on-driver-only-operation

I'm sure I read somewhere that Northern and at least one other train company would still have a 2nd employee on board, they just wouldn't close the doors. If I am remembering right then the RMT's whole argument is over who presses a little green button. Which is PATHETIC. 

[woodmally]

1 hour ago, Resident said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that Northern and at least one other train company would still have a 2nd employee on board, they just wouldn't close the doors. If I am remembering right then the RMT's whole argument is over who presses a little green button. Which is PATHETIC. 

Yep Northern have stated this here.    https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

[andyofborg]

2 hours ago, Resident said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that Northern and at least one other train company would still have a 2nd employee on board, they just wouldn't close the doors. If I am remembering right then the RMT's whole argument is over who presses a little green button. Which is PATHETIC. 

If that's the case then why are Northern Rail continuing with the plan?

[Resident]

35 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

If that's the case then why are Northern Rail continuing with the plan?

Why did the RMT start strikes, stating the reason was because taking the guard off the train was a risk to safety when that was not the case as the guard was still going to be there, albeit with a reduced workload? 

 

Surely blatantly lying to justify a strike makes said strike illegal? 

[verydull]

You simply can't compare the highly staffed well connected and funded underground to the infastructure of the northern rail area of opperation.

Northern run trains through rural and isolated areas, which usually have unmanned stations. 

Without the back up of a guard there will be no one checking tickets, and at certain times of the week and day, absolute chaos with overloaded trains and anti social behavior. 

I don't think northern have thought it through, unless the extra person will be doing these things.

All I care about is getting my train services back, so I'm not freezing half to death on a train platform on Saturday nights.. ta