Euro Elections

[altus]

9 minutes ago, Tony said:

And? Unfortunately for you, you need to understand that democracy wins, not your opinion, right or wrong. Life is full of little disappointments that we need to manage, actually and emotionally. 

 

(I'm far from being a "Brexiteer" by the way, so really don't go there)

Apologies if I mistook you for a brexiter but it doesn't change my point that leave voters will judge brexit based on the promises made by the leave campaigns not the warnings they dismissed as project fear.

[Tony]

You shouldn't apologise if I was a "Brexiter" (whatever that is). It is a perfectly respectable opinion.

[Car Boot]

53 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said:

They don’t have a clear position on leaving the EU, any more than Labour or the Tories.

 

But that’s a digression. I’m asking Car Boot specifically, because he is supposed to be a hard left winger but now he is promoting a party with disaster capitalists at its head. And also a party that has racists flocking to it in droves.

 

Hard to see how that is going to help the workers Tony

Because of our EU membership the UK is massively reliant on imports. Heavy industry has almost died. Investment in education has been greatly reduced so we can import skilled workers from poorer member states. The wealthy west exploiting the poorer east.

 

Transport, energy and water (including the profits they generate) are in the hands of foreign interests. The EU has ensured that the freedoms of the people are nothing against the freedoms for capital.

[I1L2T3]

9 minutes ago, Tony said:

I do enjoy having a little giggle at the logical contortions involved in the ongoing Losers campaign. If only as much emotional energy was put into implementing the outcome of the demos's decision. With respect, you're on the wrong side and making the wrong arguments.

It’s not a contortion of any type. The actions of governments do not bind subsequent governments. 

 

Any law law can be revoked or changed by a subsequent government. Promises made by one government are not binding on another.

 

You might not like it but that is democracy.

2 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

Because of our EU membership the UK is massively reliant on imports. Heavy industry has almost died. Investment in education has been greatly reduced so we can import skilled workers from poorer member states. The wealthy west exploiting the poorer east.

 

Transport, energy and water (including the profits they generate) are in the hands of foreign interests. The EU has ensured that the freedoms of the people are nothing against the freedoms for capital.

None of that is because of our EU membership. 

[Tony]

Just now, I1L2T3 said:

It’s not a contortion of any type. The actions of governments do not bind subsequent governments. 

 

Any law law can be revoked or changed by a subsequent government. Promises made by one government are not binding on another.

 

You might not like it but that is democracy.

Leaving the EU is also the manifesto of the current Government and the Opposition. You might not like it, but that is democracy.

[Penistone999]

1 hour ago, I1L2T3 said:

So you are a BrexitParty supporter?

I am ,and proud to be one. Ive had enough of two left wing mainstream parties trying to stop the result of the referendum and the wishes of the voters. 

[I1L2T3]

45 minutes ago, Tony said:

Leaving the EU is also the manifesto of the current Government and the Opposition. You might not like it, but that is democracy.

I’d be happy with a Norway-style relationship. Said that umpteen times on here.

 

Obviously I’d be happier with no Brexit but I’m not inflexible.

19 minutes ago, Penistone999 said:

I am ,and proud to be one. Ive had enough of two left wing mainstream parties trying to stop the result of the referendum and the wishes of the voters. 

It’s not the wish of sufficient voters is it. And therein lies the problem that will cripple any attempt to leave, over and over again.

[Tony]

@I1L2T3 once again, here are the promises in black and white that people voted for.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Edited to add this speech for utter clarity.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Tony

[I1L2T3]

6 minutes ago, Tony said:

@I1L2T3 once again, here are the promises in black and white that people voted for.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Edited to add this speech for utter clarity.

 

 

Irrelevant. Different government making promises that couldn’t be kept.

 

Note. I’m not denying he said any of this, just that everything he promised could not be delivered and further he could not bind any subsequent government by saying these things.

 

Its very simple. The whole argument really rests on moral rather than legal obligation. And the moral argument is destroyed once the damning consequences of Brexit are taken into account.

[Lockdoctor]

18 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said:

Irrelevant. Different government making promises that couldn’t be kept.

 

Note. I’m not denying he said any of this, just that everything he promised could not be delivered and further he could not bind any subsequent government by saying these things.

 

Its very simple. The whole argument really rests on moral rather than legal obligation. And the moral argument is destroyed once the damning consequences of Brexit are taken into account.

I voted to remain because I hadn't  been convinced to vote leave and listened to David Cameron's words.  I wouldn't have bothered  to turn out to vote, if I had known the result of the EU referendum wasn't going to be implemented if leave won.  The reason why more people voted in the 2016 EU referendum than in any other election in UK history is because every voter believed whatever the result, the wishes of the majority would be implemented.

 

The moral argument is that the democratic EU referendum result should have been fully respected.   Anyone who thinks otherwise has no respect for democracy when the democratic wishes of the majority don't mirror their own personal wishes.