Euro Elections

[I1L2T3]

9 minutes ago, Tony said:

You need to bring more than your opinion to this discussion. You are still wrong. 

It isn’t opinion. It is fact.

 

A democracy should be able to change its mind.

 

Are you disagreeing with that? Really?

[Tony]

It isn't at all undemocratic to change your mind. It is undemocratic to refuse to implement a democratic decision that was underpinned with express promises by the elected government and their successors. These are just the simple facts that are untarnished by opinions. The question was asked of a new generation and that decision was given and must be upheld. This is an absolute in our society and whether or not you or I agree with the decision and the promises to implement it, it must be upheld. 

 

Once it has been implemented by all means lobby to change it.

 

By the way, you'll note that I haven't said whether I agree or not with the Referendum outcome, just that the outcome must be implemented. 

 

Bringing us back on topic, the latest polls seem to indicate that the Referendum result is perfectly representative with the parties expressly for Remain languishing at the bottom of the polls for the upcoming EU election, barely mustering a quarter of the voting intention. You or I may not agree in whole or part, but these are the facts.

 

Quote

Nigel Farage’s Brexit party is on course to secure more support at the European elections than the Tories and Labour combined, according to the latest Opinium poll for the Observer.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/11/brexit-party-may-get-more-eu-election-votes-than-tories-and-labour-combined-poll

 

[Cyclone]

You said it was undemocratic to fight against something, now you've changed it to "refuse to implement".  The public can't "refuse to implement", the public don't have the power to implement or not implement anything.

It also can't be undemocratic for MPs to vote as they wish, that's also the basis of our democracy, that our representatives go to parliament and try to represent us.  Democracy doesn't require them to vote in favour of something just because a plebiscite went narrowly in favour of a particular decision.

There is no reason (from a democratic point of view) that the outcome of the advisory referendum must be implemented.

 

And so far all you've given is your opinion, do you have anything else to bring to this?

 

It's disingenuous to pretend that the european election is a rerun of the referendum.  Every independent poll recently has shown that remain is now a more popular choice.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Cyclone

[tinfoilhat]

But it's too hard. We can't achieve what was promised by various leave campaigns. If we leave without a deal, we'll break up the country - and farage and his bunch of liars are totally fine with that. It's a toss up really, force through a referendum result and damage the country for decades (rees mogg says it could be 50 years before we see benefits) or ditch it. 

[Cyclone]

I'm not sure why I'm obliged to bring something more than opinion when that's all you appear to have.

 

Your position appears to be entirely illogical as far as I can see.

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

Your position appears to be entirely illogical as far as I can see.

I know.

[I1L2T3]

How can it be wrong to disagree with the results of a national vote? And to want to reverse the decision, or to at least have a confirmatory vote now that many additional details are known?

 

Both are entirely compatible with the democratic process.

 

 

[tinfoilhat]

And since when do we put democracy over everything else? Our FPTP system isn't particularly democratic, and democracy has pulled out alot of people from poverty, in fact quite the opposite in recent times. Not only that, we're giving total control to likes of May, Corbyn or Johnson, all egged on by farage who has been rejected - democratically - several times.

 

But funny results in some of the council elections suggest that those who will suffer hardest in the result of a no deal brexit really still want it and I don't know why.

[Tony]

36 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

But it's too hard. We can't achieve what was promised by various leave campaigns. If we leave without a deal, we'll break up the country - and farage and his bunch of liars are totally fine with that. It's a toss up really, force through a referendum result and damage the country for decades (rees mogg says it could be 50 years before we see benefits) or ditch it. 

Nothing is too hard, it's just going to be different, and Brits are nothing if not adaptable and innovative, even in the face of a slerotic administration. Personally, I think that the UK is unlikely to break up but that's a bridge to cross at the time if enough people think that it is the right thing. The Scots are a canny crowd and they know a good thing, and that's not the nationalist <removed> in the SNP. The Irish are, well, the Irish, whichever side of a pretend border they happen to live, and wherever they want to go the best starting place will be somewhere else.

 

HMG have done very little of note in the last 3 years, and the nation is muddling just fine so I think the sun will still come up every morning when we're not in the EU.  Amusingly it turns out that the most conservative people are Remainers, not Conservatives.   

 

 

Back on topic.... so boys and girls - Farage is back then! What do you reckon, more than 50 of the 73 MEP seats? 

28 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said:

How can it be wrong to disagree with the results of a national vote? And to want to reverse the decision, or to at least have a confirmatory vote now that many additional details are known?

 

Both are entirely compatible with the democratic process.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with an election result - that would be a  contradiction in terms.

 

Not implementing the vote and promises made it is wrong. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by nikki-red

[I1L2T3]

A party with no manifesto. A party attracting racists. A leader who openly admires Putin, and who wants to privatise the NHS, and who is ant-immigration. A leader who lies openly and who can’t tolerate any level of scrutiny.

 

Its just Ukip again. It is going the same way.

 

Nowhere.