BobOfRoth Posted November 10, 2019 Author Share Posted November 10, 2019 15 hours ago, carosio said: Since magistrates court has been mentioned, a criminal standard of proof is required and I would think that would be more than the just word of a council employee. I hope you are right mate because otherwise any council employee can make up any old story and joe public has to just cough up and not complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobOfRoth Posted November 10, 2019 Author Share Posted November 10, 2019 16 hours ago, DavidFrance said: Since no-one replying to this thread has so far owned up to having legal qualifications...and you are simply asking for observations...I would say this: It is simply a case of "Did I do this? Answer No. Do I feel strongly enough to refuse to pay the fixed penalty but to contest it in a Magistrates Court? That's for you alone to decide but I'd advise you bear the following in mind: Legal representation would probably get you off but you have no hope of legal aid (now the Tories have virtually eliminated it) and it might cost you more than the Fixed Penalty if you cannot persuade the Court to award you costs; Secondly a Court fine would almost certainly be higher than the Fixed Penalty. And you could be made to pay THEIR costs. Third, you would have a lot of hassle. But if you won you would feel vindicated. If you lost, an appeal would be expensive. But I agree, if you didn't drop the fag end then it is an injustice. And we should not tolerate a system where some anonymous, invisible council official can, purely on his word, rack up a fixed penalty income for his bosses and, possibly, a bonus on his wages. At least if you go to court you can insist on cross examining the official, getting him to specify his location and possibly proving that he could not possibly have seen the alleged action from his viewpoint. Maybe your best course of action is to challenge the council now in a formal letter setting out your innocence and to hope that they will see it as too trivial an offence to merit risking them having to pay costs. I would also consider carefully using the word "perjury" in relation to the PACE statement of evidence. I hope that helps your train of thought. A close relative who IS legally qualified advises you to take photographs of the location....you, not someone else, and to show them to the council to point out any irregularities in the witness statement and to appeal to "their better nature" and to cancel the FP ticket. She says in a similar circumstance she would not contest it if she were a smoker (the first question a prosecutor would ask) but would contest it if she were not a smoker. She is not allowed to air her professional opinions on Forums such as this. One further point from me....is the witness a council employee of on the payroll of a private firm? If so, one has to ask if they aren't running a racket. It's not unkown in relation to parking tickets. Good luck! Thank you for your reply mate. I followed your advice and took some pics and ill be speaking with a solicitor this week. I believe I can get a 20 minute first consultation free which would help but if it goes to court Ill have to defend myself as i have very very limited funds right now but I just cant let it go and pay a fine for something I know I didnt do. Ill definitely be mindful about accusing anyone of perjury and instead ill try to point out the council works "mistake". Hopefully the other mistakes made (the location, the colour of the gates) will be enough to swing it in my favour. By the way I think its a council employee rather than a private firm but Ill be sure to ask them just to be sure. Big thanks for your reply mate its been a great deal of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carosio Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Interesting articles: https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsbys-litter-wardens-secret-target-2238802 https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/lawyers-advice-anyone-targetted-councils-12816258 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dardandec Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 They will have proof, but that proof will be mistaken. They can't take you to court on hearsay. I would contact them and ask them to provide you with this "proof" and take it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Luthor Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 On the topic of the gates... I insist on asking my partner, 'is it black bin week this week?' My partner insists (correctly?) that they are not black bins but are in fact dark green. So, just saying, maybe the colour of the gates are not what they appear at a glance?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carosio Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 If the officer maintains the deed was done whilst the OP was actually (as said) in the process of turning into a car park, the probability is that both hands would be on the wheel, and not fiddling with winding down windows and throwing out a cigarette butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 8 hours ago, Lex Luthor said: On the topic of the gates... I insist on asking my partner, 'is it black bin week this week?' My partner insists (correctly?) that they are not black bins but are in fact dark green. So, just saying, maybe the colour of the gates are not what they appear at a glance?!? That brings up the subject of where this council employee was when he/she witnessed the incident as they would have to be close to identify that it was a cigarette butt that was thrown. PS The black bins where I live are in fact black, but I understand what you mean and another reason why the above and witness distance could play a part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 On 09/11/2019 at 17:09, BobOfRoth said: "Please be advised that the evidence we hold is an eye witness account from a council officer. The incident was recorded by the officer in accordance with the Police and Criminal Evidence act 1984 and their statement is the evidence that would be used if this matter were to be referred to Magistrates court" I would take legal advice on this. I have a friend who is having ongoing trouble with a council tenant. Some of the antisocial behaviour has been witnessed by both housing officers and council wardens but the council has repeatedly told her that their witness evidence would not stand up in court if the offender chose to deny that the events had taken place. They could be lying but they could also be trying it on in your case. On the other hand as apelike pointed out, you may be responsible simply by being the registered keeper of the vehicle. My brother’s car was caught by one of those council ‘spy cars’ parked up to catch people making an illegal left turn at a junction. He was in the States at the time of the offence so rang them up and told them to do one. The next thing he knew was a court summons through his door. Turned out that under that particular council by-law, it was irrelevant who was driving the car as it was the registered keeper who was responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobOfRoth Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 Success!! I received a letter today saying my appeal was successful so thanks for the posts and advice everyone. Have a good day all. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidFrance Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Nice to know Bob. Thanks for updating us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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