Scotland And Independence.

[hauxwell]

I’ve got a feeling Salmond’s new party won’t make much difference to the the SNP.  Can’t see many women voting for him. It wouldn’t surprise me if another woman comes forward before the election making a complaint against him.  

However I would like to see Sturgeon lose votes so I hope I’m wrong.

[andyofborg]

13 hours ago, West 77 said:

He's no Nigel Farage because Nigel Farage is a winner and  achieved his aim of the UK leaving the EU.   Alex Salmond has more in common with the loser Robert Kilroy Silk who launched a new party called Veritas.  Even with the help of Joan Collins the Veritas party didn't last long.

He took the SNP  to a majority in the scottish parliament something the method of electing them was designed to make difficult. He might not have got the ultimate win of independence but they are getting closer and he's the one who took the first, biggest step. 

 

If he's started his new party out of spite and revenge and both parties disolve into bitterness and rancour then it will probably fail and damage the cause of independence. If the two parties can, even informally, work together  they could start to appeal to slightly different people and widen the appeal of independence.

 

If both parties can make a success of this then you have an independence supporting  government party and opposition party that would be a major plus in a post-independence Scotland. 

 

If that happens then it's going to force the other parties into supporting a more federalist solution and that will feed back into the English and Welsh parties.Firstly Labour and the Lib Dems and eventually even the Conservatives will have to change. 

 

[Shreddie]

Strange how many people there are out there who want self determination when it's us leaving the EU but not when it's the Scots leaving the union. Personally I didn't want the one and don't want the other. What this world needs to try and deal with the problems here now, and those coming down the line, are fewer borders, not more.

[apelike]

20 minutes ago, Shreddie said:

Strange how many people there are out there who want self determination when it's us leaving the EU but not when it's the Scots leaving the union. Personally I didn't want the one and don't want the other. What this world needs to try and deal with the problems here now, and those coming down the line, are fewer borders, not more.

I don't think that is very true though as according to YouGov only around 46% of the English and Welsh wish Scotland to remain part of the UK and around 34% say it's up to Scotland to decide.

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

 

Don't forget the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK whereas any Scottish one will be for Scotland alone.

[Magilla]

19 hours ago, West 77 said:

It makes no difference how many pro independence parties get seats in the Scottish parliament because they will not get another referendum anytime soon while the Tories have a big majority in the Westminster parliament.

This notion is purely a result of your naivety, it's not a workable/viable plan of action... and Westminster knows it.

 

Action along those lines would simply accelerate/provoke a break-up, more than prevent it.

 

If the SNP (or any independence party) wins power on the back of a promise to hold a referendum, there *will* be a referendum!

 

Whether independence would prevail is another story.

 

That you, of all people, should be suggesting it's OK for Scotland to be kept forever in an arrangement, despite it's people giving a clear indication they wish decide whether to end it, simply beggars belief... it would be tantamount to the UK being denied the ability to Brexit, and we all know how you would feel about that!

Edited March 28, 2021 by Magilla

[Magilla]

24 minutes ago, West 77 said:

You seem to have forgotten Scotland had a once in generation independence referendum election in 2014...

The "No" camp in the 2014 referendum campaigned on a promise that voting no would be the only way to *guarantee* Scotlands continued EU membership.

 

"Once in a generation" is only reasonable if there is no material change in the circumstances that prevailed.

 

Brexit is a *massive* change in those circumstances!

 

As such the case for another referendum, should the Scottish people declare their desire for one, is perfectly legitimate.

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Magilla

[Magilla]

4 minutes ago, West 77 said:

There could be no guarantee that Scotland could continue under the EU umbrella for ever just like no region of the UK could ever be guaranteed that. 

...and yet, the promise *was* made, it could be argued that it was why the "No" campaign prevailed.

 

4 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The truth is the timing of another Scottish independence is out of Scottish people's hands and it will be English voters who will decide if there is another hung Westminster Parliament after a General Election.

Westminster is stuffed with MPs who got there by claiming to be staunch defenders of the "will of the people"...

 

...if a pro-independence party wins on the back of a promise to hold a referendum, there will be a referendum.

 

 

[Magilla]

53 minutes ago, West 77 said:

It's  not in the gift of a pro independence  party to promise to hold a Scottish independence referendum.

It's their right to go to the electorate with the promise to hold an independence referendum.

 

Quote

Another Scottish independence referendum will not be granted in the current Westminster Parliament regardless of the results of any regional elections.  An eighty seat Tory majority in the current Westminster Parliament makes that a certainty.  Scotland have more chance of qualifying for a football World Cup than getting an independence referendum anytime soon.  

Given your propensity for getting it wrong... maybe we'll see!

 

Does make a complete mockery of your democratic creds though, little more than saying you'd have been happy if the EU had legally prevented the UK from being able to Brexit

 

Forcing such an arrangement simply isn't going to fly for long.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Magilla

[apelike]

14 minutes ago, Magilla said:

It's their right to go to the electorate with the promise to hold an independence referendum.

It's not their right though. They have a right to go to the electorate but it is a false promise to tell them they will hold an independence referendum without first securing that right. What is being disputed is whether Scotland will be allowed by Westminster to have another referendum so soon after the other one especially as it was meant to be a once in a lifetime thing. In the past referendum the majority voted "no" even though new voters of 16-18 years were allowed to vote to try and skew the result in favour of a "yes" outcome. Those new voters also voted in the majority for "no".

 

The 1998 Scotland act states that matters relating to the the Union of the two countries can only be determined by Westminster. Even the Scottish courts have declined to rule that the the Scottish Parliament have the right to call an independence referendum without permission from westminster. No doubt that will come to the fore again when the elections are over and a new parliament sits.

 

[Magilla]

Quote

I don't think I'm wrong in thinking a Tory party led by Boris Johnson are not going to give the SNP any favours given the fact they blocked the implementation of Brexit at every opportunity.

Brexit is a gift for the SNP and Scottish independence, the SNP only tried to block Boris' utterly disastrous implementation... and they were right to try to do so.

 

Even Boris is trying to do that now!

 

15 minutes ago, apelike said:

It's not their right though. They have a right to go to the electorate..

So... it *is* their right

 

Quote

but it is a false promise to tell them they will hold an independence referendum without first securing that right.

...and?

 

That's equally true of the promises made by the various leave campaigns during the 2016 referendum, and the "no" campaigns in the 2014 referendum...

 

...didn't stop them making them!

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Magilla