South Of Sheffield Traffic Madness

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18 hours ago, Weredoomed said:

I'm concerned that the Manchester report you quoted elsewhere seems to indicate that no matter what is done, bus usage is set to fall. Which makes one wonder whether busses are in any way, shape or form actually "sustainable" and why so much public money is thus being thrown at them. Indeed, one could argue that road widening, including the demolition of properties that you seem horrified at the prospect of is what is actually needed to improve traffic flow. Rather than, for example,  the mess that is the route into the city from Meadowhead, a single carriageway road that cries out to be a dual carriageway yet SCC flee from the very idea. Because, you say, it's apparently "too expensive". More expensive than killing off the economic activity in the city centre and thus the long term interests of the city? With that attitude, it makes one grateful that the officers at SCC were not present when the motorway network was proposed last century - they'd be against it on cost grounds alone no doubt, short-sighted that they are.

 

Perhaps "road widening on the cheap", by of doing away with bus lanes, opening road space to all traffic might improve matters generally, rather than the tinkering around the edges on the back of discrete commercial developments approach that SCC seem to currently operate under. One can't help but think that both the officers and councillors at SCC suffer from a distinct lack of vision.

 

You also say the politicians make the decisions, which is true only to the extent that they make their decisions based on what council officers tell them. Are you sure they are told all options, however unpalatable some of them might be?

Even though usage is declining, buses are still the major mode of public transport in Manchester and elsewhere and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. That's why the money gets spent. The roads would be much more badly clogged if the bus passengers all used cars. Also a sizeable number of people don't have access to a car.

 

Highway scheme proposals have to go through a rigorous assurance process at city region  or government level. They both essentially use the same process. A business case has to be developed which analyses the (monetised) benefits of the scheme (like time saving for motorists) and compares them with the cost and disbenefits.  Only schemes which offer "good" value generally proceed. Promoters aim to get a benefit / cost ratio of at least 2. (ie the monetised benefits are twice the costs) A scheme which needed to spend huge amounts buying up property to demolish might then not have a very good benefit cost ratio, so might not proceed.

 

Often, major Government funding pots are time limited in terms of how long you have to deliver a scheme. The Local Sustainable Transport Fund, to which Sheffield City Region have bid for £200m, has to be spent by end of March 2023. That basically precludes any significant land acquisition if the land owner doesn't want to sell. The Compulsory Purchase process is lengthy and costly, which again lowers your benefit / cost ratio and increases the delivery timescale. This makes a scheme look less attractive / more risky to a funder. That's why local authorities tend to try to deliver schemes within the existing highway boundary or only utilising land they already own or can easily acquire. 

 

The Councillors are fully briefed on available options. On significant highways schemes the Cabinet Member usually works very closely with the officers on developing the options. The Leader is often involved, the Cabinet get briefed and the ruling councillor group is usually briefed too. The business case development process also includes a lot of option sifting at the early stages and has to discuss what these other options are and why they aren't the best. The business cases are scrutinised by governance boards who are usually made up of very experienced professionals who will ask the difficult questions. They also have teams of officers who are experts in their fields, who scrutinise the business case and report to the governance board with recommendations. 

[bassett one]

the buses are free in  some countrys that would help sheffield?

[leginemro]

perhaps if the supertram system /network was extended from Herdings around to lowedges THAT would be a massive improvement for the Sat James shopping centre ,perhaps people would stop driving there 

[Planner1]

2 hours ago, bassett one said:

the buses are free in  some countrys that would help sheffield?

I’ve seen research which suggests most car drivers would not use public transport even if it were free.

[Andy C]

On 27/12/2019 at 11:12, Planner1 said:

This is what has already been happening for as many years as I can remember. Much of the money available for highway schemes is already targeted at improving bus services and encouraging walking and cycling.

 

Trouble is, only the tram actually produces mode shift away from car use. 

 

The evidence that I've seen points to the fact that any mode shift towards another "sustainable" mode of travel (walk, cycle, bus) , just abstracts journeys away from the other "sustainable modes of travel.

 

In my view the only way we will see major reductions in car use is if it is made much more expensive or more difficult (eg there's nowhere to park it if you use do it) to use the car.

There are of course limits on what can be done - be that financially, politically and physically.

 

My gripe these days is with politicians publically criticising bus operators for poor reliability when surely they know full well the issue is traffic congestion which is something the politicians themselves need to grapple with.

 

Public sector run the buses? Will the traffic congestion magically vanish or operating costs magically fall? I don't think so. Instead the tax payer will have to put more money in to prop up the losses many local buses are currently making.

[bassett one]

not bad today in s8 ,went to st james retail park,but busy as normal there,but the only way buses will work is by making them free like luxemburg 

[Planner1]

1 hour ago, bassett one said:

 the only way buses will work is by making them free like luxemburg 

see post #84

[Planner1]

3 hours ago, Andy C said:

Public sector run the buses? Will the traffic congestion magically vanish or operating costs magically fall? I don't think so. Instead the tax payer will have to put more money in to prop up the losses many local buses are currently making.

I suspect the logic that most people apply to that question is that they believe that the bus companies do make a profit, so if they were under public ownership, the profit could be used to provide more bus services on currently uneconomic routes or fares could be lowered.

[Weredoomed]

On 31/12/2019 at 13:57, Planner1 said:

According to census data, travel to work mode share in Sheffield is 2 to 3 % for cycling (depends on trip length) and 10% for walking.

That is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "a lot".

[Planner1]

3 hours ago, Weredoomed said:

That is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "a lot".

When you are dealing with huge numbers of commuting trips, even a fairly small percentage is a lot of people