Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

[altus]

6 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

We can, and will, still trade with our global partners.

 

We just won't be in a political and economic union with them.

 

It's called progress.

Nobody's claiming we won't be able to trade with people. You brexiters need to stop with that straw man because it makes it look like you don't know what you're talking about.

 

The issue is we won't be able to trade on such advantageous terms as we did as part of a large group. That trade deal with Japan that brexiters are so keen on, 80% of the benefits of it go to Japan. Imagine the fuss if a trade deal with the EU gave 80% of the benefits to the EU.

[Litotes]

19 minutes ago, West 77 said:

By all accounts the UK trade deal with Japan is nearly on the same terms as the EU trade deal with Japan. The only difference is digital trade. Do 80% of the benefits in the Japan and EU trade deal go to Japan?

So you agree that we don't have as good a deal as the EU and yet this is claimed as a good outcome of 'taking back control'?

[L00b]

2 hours ago, altus said:

Nobody's claiming we won't be able to trade with people. You brexiters need to stop with that straw man because it makes it look like you don't know what you're talking about.

<…>

Many posting in here and elsewhere certainly don't. Or pretend they don't, because truly, they're too embarrassed at the outcome.

 

So what is new.

 

It is long known, expressly acknowledged by Liz Truss and her team themselves, and heavily commented, that the UK-Japan trade deal commits the UK to stricter state aid curbs than in EU talks, besides pulling the trading blanket all the way to Tokyo relative to the EU-Japan trade deal. Nothing surprising about it, the Japanese are nothing if not pragmatic, capitalising on the UK's weak negotiating position as they did. But well, it was a sovereign choice by the UK, so that is that, and the UK is where it is.

 

As for "progress" in trading with partners, here is a brief (Twitter) insight into what awaits British artists wanting to gig in the EU27, in a little over a month's time. Some progress, for musos.  I could be wrong, but I think tinfoilhat gravitates around that field? Anyway, and irrespective, a very long-announced consequence, so just consider it yet another reminder, of a practical example within a relatively niche area of trade (all other goods and services traded between the UK and the EU27 considered). Multiply by <checks notes> £80bn's worth, or thereabouts?

 

But well, fish.

 

...Speaking of which, yes, some (many? most?) British fishermen are still asking for an exemption from the new, referendum-inspired, 'get Brexit done'-delivered, immigration rules.

Quote

“Between my two vivier crabbers, I employ 15 non-EEA crew, which forms the majority of my workforce. Over the 15 years I have operated the business I have always encouraged local crew.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, there is no dot-connecting mention of the fact that, much more problematically  for him, under the current trajectory of UK-EU talks, Mr Norquoy stands to lose the tariff-free access that he has enjoyed with his main markets in the EU27 for those past 15 years.

 

So what is new. Yawn.

 

Have at the windmills, go get those unicorns, and more power to ye, Leave voters

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by L00b

[Litotes]

3 hours ago, West 77 said:

What on earth makes you think that? I've only stated the UK have an  addition  digital trade agreement with Japan that the EU don't.  The UK wanted to do digital trade with the Japan and were successful in negotiating an agreement.  The UK trade deal with Japan is  arguable better for our country than if we were still in the EU and not worse as you imply.

"Arguably" - I would suggest that it is worse based on the data of what has been publicly disclosed.

1 hour ago, L00b said:

It is long known, expressly acknowledged by Liz Truss and her team themselves, and heavily commented, that the UK-Japan trade deal commits the UK to stricter state aid curbs than in EU talks.

 

Please provide proof that we are wrong...

[L00b]

9 hours ago, Litotes said:

"Arguably" - I would suggest that it is worse based on the data of what has been publicly disclosed.

 

Please provide proof that we are wrong...

I didn't argue that you were wrong, so I'm not sure where that came from, nor what am I supposed to prove here.

 

But if you wish to see evidence of the point you quoted, just Google 'UK Japan deal state aid' then tab the 'news' results and an FT article should be at the top, with all the gritty details. It's not new at all, to anyone who's been following Truss' efforts.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by L00b

[RJRB]

3 hours ago, West 77 said:

I use the word arguably because I'm not trying to big up the deal because there is very little difference to the EU and Japan deal. The advantage of negotiating our own trade deals is we can seek more  bespoke arrangements than being a member of a group of 28 which is now 27. I would suggest you're too prejudice to make a balance  judgement regarding anything to do with Brexit and its consequences for our nation. 

I would say  that having accepted that Brexit of one form or another is a fact of life,that many who fundamentally oppose it are now look for the benefits that may have been overlooked or downplayed.

Prejudice suggests an irrational viewpoint which I would argue with.

[Pettytom]

It’s all going swimmingly. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/12/post-brexit-lorry-queues-could-make-kent-toilet-of-england?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[L00b]

7 hours ago, West 77 said:

I use the word arguably because I'm not trying to big up the deal because there is very little difference to the EU and Japan deal. The advantage of negotiating our own trade deals is we can seek more  bespoke arrangements than being a member of a group of 28 which is now 27. I would suggest you're too prejudice to make a balance  judgement regarding anything to do with Brexit and its consequences for our nation. 

Try and balance that one.

[Litotes]

9 hours ago, West 77 said:

I would suggest you're too prejudice to make a balance  judgement regarding anything to do with Brexit and its consequences for our nation. 

Ooops - shot yourself in the foot there didn't you?

Balanced means considering both sides of an argument based on facts.

At the moment anyone who can claim that Brexit is beneficial to the UK has no facts to go on, and therefore a balanced judgement on the consequences for our nation would have to come down on the side that it is not beneficial for the UK because all it has done so far is to cost us money, create division and put Boris in power - none of which are beneficial.

 

The future may allow the argument to become more balanced, but I can't see how anyone can claim that it has been beneficial so far based on the facts that we have, not the promises that were made. The ones which are already being broken.

41 minutes ago, West 77 said:

My balanced view is that you're not going to direct me to a link that doesn't support your own biased EU opinions. It's pointless analysing speculation from alleged EU sources. I will wait to see what actually happens before I make my balanced views on any trade agreements.

Is that based on fact, or on your own prejudice? But your last part "I will wait to see what actually happens before I make my balanced views on any trade agreements." means that you cannot consider it to be a good deal or a bad deal - just a deal.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Litotes

[Longcol]

12 hours ago, West 77 said:

I use the word arguably because I'm not trying to big up the deal because there is very little difference to the EU and Japan deal. The advantage of negotiating our own trade deals is we can seek more  bespoke arrangements than being a member of a group of 28 which is now 27. I would suggest you're too prejudice to make a balance  judgement regarding anything to do with Brexit and its consequences for our nation. 

"Bespoke arrangements" are looking increasingly like WTO terms.