Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

[geared]

28 minutes ago, m williamson said:

Also as I said, there's two choices,

Yes you've said that twice and still not really made much sense.  Two choices in what?  Keeping NI separate from ROI?

 

Then unification gives a third choice, so there's no two choices at all.

 

 

[m williamson]

42 minutes ago, geared said:

Yes you've said that twice and still not really made much sense.  Two choices in what?  Keeping NI separate from ROI?

 

Then unification gives a third choice, so there's no two choices at all.

 

 

You don't get what the two choices are? I thought it was obvious. Keep paying out billions of British taxpayers money every year till Armageddon comes  Or agree a deal which ends Britain's payments and responsibilities for ever. If costs are an initial stumbling block to reunification following a vote to unite then Britain would be stupid not to assist, even leaving aside any moral obligation having been the cause of the problem in the first place.

 

As Britain wants to get rid of Northern Ireland the choice is obvious. The GFA made it perfectly clear to anyone who gave it any thought that Westminster wants rid.

The statement that Britain no longer has any selfish, economic or strategic interest in Northern Ireland and that it would be the people of Northern Irelands choice not Westminster's as to whether they should remain or go is proof of that.

To then agree to border polls which can be repeated at intervals until reunification is agreed provides further evidence of intent, and to top it off with an agreement that 50%+1 gets to decide the poll removes all doubt.

 

The Troubles were a stalemate, compromises were made by both sides, republican nationalists agreed to give up armed insurrection and use political means to achieve their goal. The British government agreed to give up the final say regarding the future of Northern Ireland.

[harvey19]

1 hour ago, m williamson said:

You don't get what the two choices are? I thought it was obvious. Keep paying out billions of British taxpayers money every year till Armageddon comes  Or agree a deal which ends Britain's payments and responsibilities for ever. If costs are an initial stumbling block to reunification following a vote to unite then Britain would be stupid not to assist, even leaving aside any moral obligation having been the cause of the problem in the first place.

 

As Britain wants to get rid of Northern Ireland the choice is obvious. The GFA made it perfectly clear to anyone who gave it any thought that Westminster wants rid.

The statement that Britain no longer has any selfish, economic or strategic interest in Northern Ireland and that it would be the people of Northern Irelands choice not Westminster's as to whether they should remain or go is proof of that.

To then agree to border polls which can be repeated at intervals until reunification is agreed provides further evidence of intent, and to top it off with an agreement that 50%+1 gets to decide the poll removes all doubt.

 

The Troubles were a stalemate, compromises were made by both sides, republican nationalists agreed to give up armed insurrection and use political means to achieve their goal. The British government agreed to give up the final say regarding the future of Northern Ireland.

Before the late 1960s peaceful attempts were made for reunification.

The armed insurrection was given up as the IRA were infiltrated comprehensively as is recorded in many sources.

Deals had obviously been done over the years and I think the British government had reached a stage where they were ready to say goodbye.

The deciding factor would be when the catholic population exceeded the protestant population and could outvote them in a referendum.

What you do not mention is the death and maiming of forces of the crown and innocent civilians by the IRA. to force a change.

Many could say terrorism and killing work to achieve a goal and would not accept the result.

If the north and south did join financial aid from the Uk should cease after say 1 year.

Have you noticed there is no talk of reunification by the southern government who may just not want to take on the responsibility of Northern Ireland.

We are back to ideology and history versus reality.

 

Ps If after 1921 everyone had worked together to help the north to prosper and people live in harmony reunification may have been a consequence.

 

3 hours ago, m williamson said:

You do realise that the whole Northern Ireland situation was caused by the British government refusing to accept the result of a democratic Irish General Election held under British governance don't you?

That being the case some support in order to rectify a problem caused by Westminster is perfectly reasonable.

 

Also as I said, there's two choices, carry on forever paying out billions every year or taper off the subsidy and finally end it. What's the financially sensible thing to do? 

The Americans as brokers in the GFA will have a say in what happens,  as the UK does as its told when the Americans instruct we'll take the sensible course of action for a change.

You know more about Irish history than me and so please remind me what happened to the Irish leader after 1920/21. Wasn't he shot by his opposition political party ?

[m williamson]

10 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

Before the late 1960s peaceful attempts were made for reunification.

The armed insurrection was given up as the IRA were infiltrated comprehensively as is recorded in many sources.

Deals had obviously been done over the years and I think the British government had reached a stage where they were ready to say goodbye.

The deciding factor would be when the catholic population exceeded the protestant population and could outvote them in a referendum.

What you do not mention is the death and maiming of forces of the crown and innocent civilians by the IRA. to force a change.

Many could say terrorism and killing work to achieve a goal and would not accept the result.

If the north and south did join financial aid from the Uk should cease after say 1 year.

Have you noticed there is no talk of reunification by the southern government who may just not want to take on the responsibility of Northern Ireland.

We are back to ideology and history versus reality.

 

Ps If after 1921 everyone had worked together to help the north to prosper and people live in harmony reunification may have been a consequence.

 

You know more about Irish history than me and so please remind me what happened to the Irish leader after 1920/21. Wasn't he shot by his opposition political party ?

The armed insurrection was given up by both party's as a stalemate. Don't believe the propaganda fed to the British public by the media, they are batting for one side, you can't blame them for that, it's the side their breads buttered on.

 

However, I prefer to believe the opinion of the British army which tells a different story. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6276416.stm

That's a report never intended for public viewing and obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. Take note of paragraphs 7 and 8, not exactly how it was reported to the general public was it? 

 

No talk of reunification from the Taoisearch ? 

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw89lje5q7do

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-believes-there-will-be-a-united-ireland-in-his-lifetime-1524031.html

 

The country should never have been partitioned  in the first place, Ireland is an older nation than England. When it was partitioned and gerrymandered in order to provide an artificial majority for the unionists they abused their position and discriminated against the nationalist Catholic population in every way possible. Westminster ignored the sectarianism and eventually that led to the Troubles and where we are today.

 

Yes, Michael Collins was killed in the civil war. Had he not been Ireland would have been reunited after WW2. Churchill offered Northern Ireland to de Valera in exchange for the use of Irish ports during the war.  https://www.irishtimes.com/news/britain-offered-unity-if-ireland-entered-war-1.281078

de Valera turned the offer down because he didn't trust Churchill to keep his word. He probably wouldn't have, but had he given his word to Collins he wouldn't have dared renege.

Collins was a truly great man and an altogether different character to Dev.

 

[cuttsie]

7 minutes ago, m williamson said:

The armed insurrection was given up by both party's as a stalemate. Don't believe the propaganda fed to the British public by the media, they are batting for one side, you can't blame them for that, it's the side their breads buttered on.

 

However, I prefer to believe the opinion of the British army which tells a different story. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6276416.stm

That's a report never intended for public viewing and obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. Take note of paragraphs 7 and 8, not exactly how it was reported to the general public was it? 

 

No talk of reunification from the Taoisearch ? 

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw89lje5q7do

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-believes-there-will-be-a-united-ireland-in-his-lifetime-1524031.html

 

The country should never have been partitioned  in the first place, Ireland is an older nation than England. When it was partitioned and gerrymandered in order to provide an artificial majority for the unionists they abused their position and discriminated against the nationalist Catholic population in every way possible. Westminster ignored the sectarianism and eventually that led to the Troubles and where we are today.

 

Yes, Michael Collins was killed in the civil war. Had he not been Ireland would have been reunited after WW2. Churchill offered Northern Ireland to de Valera in exchange for the use of Irish ports during the war.  https://www.irishtimes.com/news/britain-offered-unity-if-ireland-entered-war-1.281078

de Valera turned the offer down because he didn't trust Churchill to keep his word. He probably wouldn't have, but had he given his word to Collins he wouldn't have dared renege.

Collins was a truly great man and an altogether different character to Dev.

 

Did de Valera trust the Germans ?

 

[m williamson]

Trust the Germans?  What's that got to do with it cuttsie? 

 

I'm no admirer of Dev but you do realise that Ireland had fought a War of Independence against Britain which had only ended 17 years previously?

And that during the Easter Rising back in 1916 Eamon de Valera had been sentenced to death by the British don't you? Only the fact that he was an American citizen saved his life.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éamon_de_Valera

 

I'd imagine that that kind of thing could put you off people.  😉

 

[harvey19]

1 hour ago, m williamson said:

The armed insurrection was given up by both party's as a stalemate. Don't believe the propaganda fed to the British public by the media, they are batting for one side, you can't blame them for that, it's the side their breads buttered on.

 

However, I prefer to believe the opinion of the British army which tells a different story. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6276416.stm

That's a report never intended for public viewing and obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. Take note of paragraphs 7 and 8, not exactly how it was reported to the general public was it? 

 

No talk of reunification from the Taoisearch ? 

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw89lje5q7do

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-believes-there-will-be-a-united-ireland-in-his-lifetime-1524031.html

 

The country should never have been partitioned  in the first place, Ireland is an older nation than England. When it was partitioned and gerrymandered in order to provide an artificial majority for the unionists they abused their position and discriminated against the nationalist Catholic population in every way possible. Westminster ignored the sectarianism and eventually that led to the Troubles and where we are today.

 

Yes, Michael Collins was killed in the civil war. Had he not been Ireland would have been reunited after WW2. Churchill offered Northern Ireland to de Valera in exchange for the use of Irish ports during the war.  https://www.irishtimes.com/news/britain-offered-unity-if-ireland-entered-war-1.281078

de Valera turned the offer down because he didn't trust Churchill to keep his word. He probably wouldn't have, but had he given his word to Collins he wouldn't have dared renege.

Collins was a truly great man and an altogether different character to Dev.

 

I have not read the whole article but it is obvious there will always be IRA sympathisers.

The IRA said they were an army at war.  They were never a recognised  army at war instead  they were recognised as  terrorists. If they had been an army at war the Geneva Convention would have applied instead of civil criminal laws.

You must remember the "planter" who moved to N. Ireland from mainly Scotland brought much wealth and created industries.

One way to describe the British governments actions in N. Ireland was patching a leaking rook instead of sorting out and solving the problem in the early 1900s.

If the RUC records had been up to date at the time of  internment there may not have been as much support for the IRA.

I still do not think the south want to take on the responsibilities of the north but we will have to wait and see.

Edited September 7, 2023 by harvey19

[m williamson]

14 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

I have not read the whole article but it is obvious there will always be IRA sympathisers.

The IRA said they were an army at war.  They were never an army at war they were terrorists. If they had been an army at war the Geneva Convention would have applied instead of civil criminal laws.

You must remember the "planter" who moved to N. Ireland from mainly Scotland brought much wealth and created industries.

One way to describe the British governments actions in N. Ireland was patching a leaking rook instead of sorting out and solving the problem in the early 1900s.

If the RUC records had been up to date at the time of  internment there may not have been as much support for the IRA.

I still do not think the south want to take on the responsibilities of the north but we will have to wait and see.

If a country is occupied by a foreign power and it has attempted over many many years to persuade that foreign power to leave and stop interfering in their affairs, yet that foreign power has refused to do so, even refusing to honour a national vote for independence carried out under its jurisdiction and rules, what exactly do you think those people who wish to be free should do about it?

 

It's an old saying but a true one, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

The majority of people in the Republic want to see their country reunited. My experience of life in the Republic goes back to the fifties, I visited every year and spent up to two months there with my family. After leaving school in Sheffield we moved there and I attended a technical college there.

Most of my family are Irish and I have many friends there as well. Over all those years I've never heard a single person say they didn't want their country reunited.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/republic-of-ireland-irish-people-irish-times-mary-lou-mcdonald-b1974189.html

 

I don't believe it will happen in my lifetime and that's okay as I want it to happen as peacefully as possible. Another twenty years or so in the history of such a nation is nothing at the end of the day.

 

" Ireland is not a daughter State. She is a parent nation, The Irish are an ancient race. "

Winston Churchill speech 1948

[Magilla]

Some good news at last...

 

It’s official: UK to associate to Horizon Europe:

https://sciencebusiness.net/news/horizon-europe/its-official-uk-associate-horizon-europe

 

YAY!

 

 

Sadly, the usual Brexit caveats of more for less:

 

The UK will pay in “almost €2.6 billion” a year for its participation, the announcement confirms... ~£1bn more p.a than Pre-Brexit.

 

Also, another fly in the ointment is that the UK is not going to rejoin Euratom, so is also out of ITER

 

 

[harvey19]

50 minutes ago, m williamson said:

If a country is occupied by a foreign power and it has attempted over many many years to persuade that foreign power to leave and stop interfering in their affairs, yet that foreign power has refused to do so, even refusing to honour a national vote for independence carried out under its jurisdiction and rules, what exactly do you think those people who wish to be free should do about it?

 

It's an old saying but a true one, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

The majority of people in the Republic want to see their country reunited. My experience of life in the Republic goes back to the fifties, I visited every year and spent up to two months there with my family. After leaving school in Sheffield we moved there and I attended a technical college there.

Most of my family are Irish and I have many friends there as well. Over all those years I've never heard a single person say they didn't want their country reunited.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/republic-of-ireland-irish-people-irish-times-mary-lou-mcdonald-b1974189.html

 

I don't believe it will happen in my lifetime and that's okay as I want it to happen as peacefully as possible. Another twenty years or so in the history of such a nation is nothing at the end of the day.

 

" Ireland is not a daughter State. She is a parent nation, The Irish are an ancient race. "

Winston Churchill speech 1948

There are many in the north who do not want reunification and I will repeat that I have been told many in the south do not want the problems of N. Ireland brought to them.

Presumably you did not experience the Troubles personally or lost loved ones  and so may have a different perspective of things to those who lived through them.

I am not aware of all the details of your first paragraph or the dates  but the power in N.Ireland is not foreign.

If some of those in the north want to leave the UK they need to realise the financial benefits they will lose.