Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

[harvey19]

15 minutes ago, m williamson said:

The Good Friday Agreement provided the mechanism for Ireland to be reunited by peaceful political means. That mechanism didn't exist previously, Northern Ireland was a gerrymandered state designed to provide unchallenged power to one group and one group only.

They could have set out to prove that those in what was the Free State at that time were wrong and should have remained in the UK.

Instead of which they set out to discriminate against that community in every way possible.

 

James Craig said at the time that it would be interesting to see which part of Ireland turned out to be the most successful. That question has been answered beyond all argument. Despite being left without the country's manufacturing sector and at first being almost completely agricultural the Republic has totally eclipsed NI economically and is wealthier than any part of the UK with the single exception of the South East of England.

 

The Republic is even helping out Northern Ireland financially.  https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/education/student-nurse-cuts-lead-to-cross-border-ireland-deal-12-06-2023/#:~:text=The Republic of Ireland will,Northern Ireland for 2023-24.

 

The contrast is stark,  Northern Ireland   https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2023/08/15/news/major_road_schemes_in_ni_paused_amid_funding_shortfall-3531300/

 

The Republic.  https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/ireland-to-invest-over-1bn-in-local-and-national-roads-in-2023-20-02-2023/

 

Partition should never have happened in the first place. Reunification is inevitable, I doubt that I will live to see it happen but as peaceful as possible a transition is what matters.

 

That is the reality.

 

 

The reality I spoke of was how terror had affected families and why views are so strong in certain areas on all sides.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by harvey19

[m williamson]

25 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

The reality I spoke of was how terror had affected families and why views are so strong in certain areas on all sides.

 

 

You are under the impression that I was unaware of that?  I can assure you that I was not. As usual it was mainly the innocent that paid the price. People from both communities simply trying to live their lives like the rest of us were damaged by death. injury, loss and their lives affected to a heart-breaking  degree.

 

Who was responsible?  The ones who created the unacceptable situation which gave rise to a Civil Rights Movement in the United Kingdom?

The ' Loyalists ' who reacted to the possibility of nationalists being treat as equals by carrying out ' Black Flag ' bombings in an effort to blame the IRA, who weren't active at that stage?

Or the PIRA, who eventually responded to the ' loyalist ' attacks on the Catholic community which began in 1966 by forming a paramilitary group in December 1969?

This is the Timeline  of the Troubles      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Troubles

 

Not quite as Good Guys Bad Guys as a lot of people think.

 

 

[harvey19]

2 minutes ago, m williamson said:

You are under the impression that I was unaware of that?  I can assure you that I was not. As usual it was mainly the innocent that paid the price. People from both communities simply trying to live their lives like the rest of us were damaged by death. injury, loss and their lives affected to a heart-breaking  degree.

 

Who was responsible?  The ones who created the unacceptable situation which gave rise to a Civil Rights Movement in the United Kingdom?

The ' Loyalists ' who reacted to the possibility of nationalists being treat as equals by carrying out ' Black Flag ' bombings in an effort to blame the IRA, who weren't active at that stage?

Or the PIRA, who eventually responded to the ' loyalist ' attacks on the Catholic community which began in 1966 by forming a paramilitary group in December 1969?

This is the Timeline  of the Troubles      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Troubles

 

Not quite as Good Guys Bad Guys as a lot of people think.

 

 

You are still missing the point.

The book illustrates the personal tragedies.

Not the history of the troubles which is recounted in many books.

[m williamson]

1 hour ago, harvey19 said:

You are still missing the point.

The book illustrates the personal tragedies.

Not the history of the troubles which is recounted in many books.

No, you are the one  missing the point.

The personal tragedies are terrible, they shouldn't have happened, but the grim reality is that they did happen and little can be done about the past. The point is that the  situation is still not resolved,  there won't be complete peace on that island until such time as it is resolved, once and for all.

 

The personal tragedies are exactly that, personal. As tragic as they are they don't alter the situation.  In order to prevent anything like that happening again action has to be taken. The British government - for understandable reasons - has accepted that the country needs to be reunited and it wants the ongoing cost to finish at some point. It has to be handled with finesse. And I'm not sure how subtle the current authorities are.

 

The government intends to bring in a Northern Ireland Legacy and Reconciliation Bill which is a blatant attempt to cover up state crimes and complicity in crimes during the Troubles.

All Northern Irish political parties are against the bill,  when you get the DUP and Sinn Fein in agreement you know something strange is going on.

 

 

[harvey19]

47 minutes ago, m williamson said:

No, you are the one  missing the point.

The personal tragedies are terrible, they shouldn't have happened, but the grim reality is that they did happen and little can be done about the past. The point is that the  situation is still not resolved,  there won't be complete peace on that island until such time as it is resolved, once and for all.

 

The personal tragedies are exactly that, personal. As tragic as they are they don't alter the situation.  In order to prevent anything like that happening again action has to be taken. The British government - for understandable reasons - has accepted that the country needs to be reunited and it wants the ongoing cost to finish at some point. It has to be handled with finesse. And I'm not sure how subtle the current authorities are.

 

The government intends to bring in a Northern Ireland Legacy and Reconciliation Bill which is a blatant attempt to cover up state crimes and complicity in crimes during the Troubles.

All Northern Irish political parties are against the bill,  when you get the DUP and Sinn Fein in agreement you know something strange is going on.

 

 

You are still missing the point.

Your statement regarding state crimes excludes terrorist crimes. Why is this ?

 

[m williamson]

1 hour ago, harvey19 said:

You are still missing the point.

Your statement regarding state crimes excludes terrorist crimes. Why is this ?

 

That should be obvious to anyone who gave it a moments thought. I said  " The government intends to bring in a Northern Ireland Legacy and Reconciliation Bill which is a blatant attempt to cover up state crimes and complicity in crimes during the Troubles ".

 

The comment was specifically about something the government is doing and the Northern Irish political party's, including Sinn Fein and the DUP both of whom had paramilitary connections during the Troubles ( and the DUP still has ) are against it.

That being the case, why would I mention terrorist crimes in that particular context? Everyone knows that terrorists of both persuasions carried out some obscene crimes, but my comment was with reference to the British government and their intent to sweep everything under the carpet.

 

So what is the point?

[harvey19]

10 minutes ago, m williamson said:

That should be obvious to anyone who gave it a moments thought. I said  " The government intends to bring in a Northern Ireland Legacy and Reconciliation Bill which is a blatant attempt to cover up state crimes and complicity in crimes during the Troubles ".

 

The comment was specifically about something the government is doing and the Northern Irish political party's, including Sinn Fein and the DUP both of whom had paramilitary connections during the Troubles ( and the DUP still has ) are against it.

That being the case, why would I mention terrorist crimes in that particular context? Everyone knows that terrorists of both persuasions carried out some obscene crimes, but my comment was with reference to the British government and their intent to sweep everything under the carpet.

 

So what is the point?

I do not understand how you know the bill is to cover up state crimes and complicity in crimes only.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by harvey19

[m williamson]

14 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

I do not understand how you know the bill is to cover up state crimes and complicity in crimes only.

 

 

The DUP,  Sinn Fein and every other political party in Northern Ireland is against this bill .  The Irish government is against the bill,  it has been criticised by victims representative organisations, church leaders, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and Westminster's Joint Committee on Human Rights.

All of them want all terrorist crimes from whatever source to continue to be investigated. The only party involved that wants to see no further investigation into what happened during the Troubles is the British government.

 

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20230626-good-friday-committee-calls-on-the-uk-government-to-withdraw-the-northern-ireland-troubles-legacy-and-reconciliation-bill/

 

Germany convicted a 97 year old former Nazi 77 years after the end of WW2. The British government wants  to draw a veil over a conflict that ended 25 years ago. Why would they wish to do that?

 

Do you understand now?  

[harvey19]

8 hours ago, m williamson said:

The DUP,  Sinn Fein and every other political party in Northern Ireland is against this bill .  The Irish government is against the bill,  it has been criticised by victims representative organisations, church leaders, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and Westminster's Joint Committee on Human Rights.

All of them want all terrorist crimes from whatever source to continue to be investigated. The only party involved that wants to see no further investigation into what happened during the Troubles is the British government.

 

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20230626-good-friday-committee-calls-on-the-uk-government-to-withdraw-the-northern-ireland-troubles-legacy-and-reconciliation-bill/

 

Germany convicted a 97 year old former Nazi 77 years after the end of WW2. The British government wants  to draw a veil over a conflict that ended 25 years ago. Why would they wish to do that?

 

Do you understand now?  

Wait a bit I just recommended a book which I thought may interest you.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by harvey19

[Chekhov]

This has probably been mentioned before, but I have just discovered I will be charged to use my EE mobile in Spain. £2.29 per day in fact.

I accept these are private companies making business decisions and therefore nothing to do with the government, or the Leave campaign. But I seem to remember being assured, by Leavers, that would not happen ?