Are We Heading For A Recession Like In The 30s?

[andyofborg]

2 hours ago, MarcyC said:

It would only work if they kept it to themselves

because of all the parasite currency dealers and lenders  would get their knickers in a twist and undermine it all by going public

but if they kept it to themselves no one would know  what they had done which would pretty much negate the effect of doing it. 

 

we've been quite spoiled here, we expect a better standard from our trolls. you might be better off on facebook..... 

 

 

[Magilla]

2 hours ago, MarcyC said:

It would only work if they kept it to themselves

because of all the parasite currency dealers and lenders  would get their knickers in a twist and undermine it all by going public

Someone hasn't thought that through

 

[apelike]

58 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Really? Look to the unrest in America and Belarus. Do we really want that sort of scenario on the streets of Britain?

Yes really as I'm not talking about the USA or Belarus but the UK. The last riots we had were put down fairly quickly and faded very fast  with those that were caught taking advantage given lengthy prison terms as an example. Like the USA and other EU countries modern governments have spent a fortune on riot gear and other equipment to be ready "just in case." 

 

Now look at the well kitted out police in the riots in Belarus and also the USA and you will see how prepared they are against any uprising.

 

The USA is totally different as well as they have a written constitution guaranteed in law and must abide by it which means people have the freedom to own arms and also to use them if threatened. 

 

58 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Far better surely that the authorities listen to the people, and act to remedy the discontent before it gets to that stage. 

The authorities are not in the habit of listening to the people as its the people who voted them into power in the first place so gave them the authority to act on their behalf. You only have to look at parliament to see that they consider themselves to be the lawmakers as they were  elected by the people to act on the people's behalf. Listening to the people also means the people would be in charge and they would be out of a job! Parliament make the decisions and that's why peoples protests don't work, a classic case was the second referendum demand by some. The only way things will/may change is if the political scene changes and I certainly can't see that happening anytime soon as current politics does not allow it.

[ECCOnoob]

1 hour ago, apelike said:

Yes really as I'm not talking about the USA or Belarus but the UK. The last riots we had were put down fairly quickly and faded very fast  with those that were caught taking advantage given lengthy prison terms as an example. Like the USA and other EU countries modern governments have spent a fortune on riot gear and other equipment to be ready "just in case." 

 

Now look at the well kitted out police in the riots in Belarus and also the USA and you will see how prepared they are against any uprising.

 

The USA is totally different as well as they have a written constitution guaranteed in law and must abide by it which means people have the freedom to own arms and also to use them if threatened. 

 

The authorities are not in the habit of listening to the people as its the people who voted them into power in the first place so gave them the authority to act on their behalf. You only have to look at parliament to see that they consider themselves to be the lawmakers as they were  elected by the people to act on the people's behalf. Listening to the people also means the people would be in charge and they would be out of a job! Parliament make the decisions and that's why peoples protests don't work, a classic case was the second referendum demand by some. The only way things will/may change is if the political scene changes and I certainly can't see that happening anytime soon as current politics does not allow it.

I disagree.  They do listen.  Its just that they cannot hear for all the excess shouting. 

 

"The people" are dumb.  "The people"  are emotive and reactionary.  "The people" dont research, investigate and consider full context.  "The people" are selfish and dont consider wider implications. "The people" are fickle and dont even know what they want themselves....    That is why we have elected representatives.  Without such nothing could ever get done.   Blimey, the house with merely 650 of various supposed political alignments have shown numerous examples of failing to agree on things and parliamentary sessions descending into shouting fests - how the hell are "The people" in their billions supposed to agree on something.

 

I have said before that there are numerous ways that "The people" could choose to become engaged in their communities, local affairs and national politics.  However, significant numbers of those "people" wont because its dull and difficult to understand and time consuming and generally not as exciting as watching Love Island or reading about some shagging scandal in The Sun.  

 

Protest can and does work.   Petitioning can and does work.  But it has to have a succint and rational point.   Im not seeing that these days.  What I am seeing is lots of generic wide-scale shouting fests over nothing and everything.   A substantial number of which, in my opinion, are fuelled by nothing more than the losers of the last election desprately trying to find ways to shout out the democratically elected government from office.     

 

That is not succinct and rational.  That sort of protest is nothing more than a generic "...I dont like and its all their fault". 

 

Whether some of those "people" dont like and didnt vote for the current leaders is wholly irrelevant.   Its was an fair democratic election which followed exactly the same process as every other election before.  The majority went to the Tories just like the majority went to Labour in 1997 and no majority went to either in 2010  and 2017.  

 

Now, if they want to change the electoral system completely to make it fairer - that's absolutely fine.  Protest for that but make it that subject alone.   Instead we always seems to be get some some 1001 subject cornucopia street march filled with  the usual "rent a mob" followers waving around their sponsored placards.   No wonder the context gets completely drowned out.

 

If "the people" seriously want to have their say then far far more of them need to be prepared to put the effort in.  That goes well beyond clicking some online poll/petition and far more than just joining some nice walk around London on a sunny day.     People need to get smart and properly understand the decisions being made, the context and how it will affect not just them but the wider population BEFORE jumping in with some reaction. 

 

They need to start properly engaging in the politics they vote for.   Reading the paperwork which is duly published all over the parlimentary and local authority websites.   Attending the commitees either in person or virtually by activley seeking out the consultations when they are and/or watching the recordings of either commitees or parliamentry sessions which are freely available on both television and the web 24 hours a day.    That's how they will learn about the processes and maybe understand properly why things are done in a certain way and take a certain timescale BEFORE jumping to some reaction.

 

"The people" need to start properly engaging with their elected representatives.  They are free to contact, meet with and communicate with their offices on any issue including seeking any available freedom of information on the subjects they have concerns about.  That way they can obtain the full factual information BEFORE jumping to some reaction.  

 

That's how you get them to listen.  Everything else is white noise.

Edited August 31, 2020 by ECCOnoob

[tinfoilhat]

3 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

I disagree.  They do listen.  Its just that they cannot hear for all the excess shouting. 

 

"The people" are dumb.  "The people"  are emotive and reactionary.  "The people" dont research, investigate and consider full context.  "The people" are selfish and dont consider wider implications. "The people" are fickle and dont even know what they want....    That is why we have elected representatives.  Without such nothing could ever get done.   Blimey, the house with merely 650 of various supposed political alignments have shown numerous examples of failing to agree on things and parliamentary sessions descending into shouting fests - how the hell are "The people" in their billions supposed to agree on something.

 

I have said before that there are numerous ways that "The people" could choose to become engage in their communities, local affairs and national politics.  However, significant numbers of those "people" wont because its dull and difficult to understand and time consuming and generally not as exciting as watching Love Island or reading about some shagging scandal in the Sun.  

 

Protest can and does work.   Petitioning can and does work but it has to have a succint and rational point.   Im not seeing that these days.  What I am seeing is lots of generic wide-scale shouting fests over nothing and everything.   A substantial number of which in my opinion are fuelled by nothing more than the losers of the election trying to shout out the democratically elected government.      Said before that simply shouting "...I dont like and its all their fault" is not enough. 

 

Whether some of those ""people" dont like and didnt vote for the current leaders is irrelevant.   Its was an fair democratic election which followed exactly the same process as every other election before.  The majority went to the Tories just like the majority went to Labour in 1997 and no majority went to either in 2010  and 2017.  

 

Now, if they want to change the electoral system then protest for that but make it that alone.   Not some 1001 subjects cornucopia street marching filled with  the usual "rent a mob" followers waving around their sponsored placards. 

 

If "The people" seriously want to have their say then far far more need to be prepared to put the effort in.  That goes far far beyond clicking some online poll/petition and far more than just joining some nice walk around London on a sunny day.     People needs to get smart and properly understand the decisions being made, the context and how it will affect not just them but the wider population BEFORE jumping in with some reaction. 

 

They need to start properly engaging in the politics they vote for.   Reading the paperwork which is duly published all over the parlimentary and local authority websites.   Attending the commitees either in person or virtually by activley seeking out the consultations when they are and/or watching the recordings of either commitees or parliamentry sessions which are freely available on both television and the web 24 hours a day.    That's how they will learn about the processes and maybe understand properly why things are done in a certain way and take a certain timescale BEFORE jumping to some reaction.

 

The people needs to start properly engaging with their elected representatives.  They are free to contact, meet with and communicate with their offices on any issue or seek any relevant and available freedom of information on any subject they have interest in.   That way they can obtain the full factual information BEFORE jumping to some reaction.  

 

That's how you get them to listen.  Everything else is white noise. 

Yeah all that, but if you know some of them personally or even know somebody who knows them - you're in. Need to swerve some up-coming planning regs, want to head up a public health body despite a stream of failures - don't worry about it, you just need to go to the right dinner party.

[Anna B]

1 hour ago, apelike said:

Yes really as I'm not talking about the USA or Belarus but the UK. The last riots we had were put down fairly quickly and faded very fast  with those that were caught taking advantage given lengthy prison terms as an example. Like the USA and other EU countries modern governments have spent a fortune on riot gear and other equipment to be ready "just in case." 

 

Now look at the well kitted out police in the riots in Belarus and also the USA and you will see how prepared they are against any uprising.

 

The USA is totally different as well as they have a written constitution guaranteed in law and must abide by it which means people have the freedom to own arms and also to use them if threatened. 

 

The authorities are not in the habit of listening to the people as its the people who voted them into power in the first place so gave them the authority to act on their behalf. You only have to look at parliament to see that they consider themselves to be the lawmakers as they were  elected by the people to act on the people's behalf. Listening to the people also means the people would be in charge and they would be out of a job! Parliament make the decisions and that's why peoples protests don't work, a classic case was the second referendum demand by some. The only way things will/may change is if the political scene changes and I certainly can't see that happening anytime soon as current politics does not allow it.

And herein lies the problem. People no longer trust the democratic system, which on too many occasions has proved to be a sham. Young people in particular have lost faith, and you may remember how, before Corbyn, many many people were refusing/not bothering to vote altogether.

 

A cross in a box once every 5 years, with little choice on who you are voting for, with manifestos that are routinely ignored once in power, and corruption round every corner does not add up to popular democracy. We are lied to on a regular basis, manipulated by the media and vested interests, and 'transparency' is just a meaningless word. 

 

The guy in Belarus got in with an unheard of 80% of the vote, elections in Russia keep Putin in power, Trump is sounding off about electoral corruption in the USA, Oligarchs rule, and guys with big money buy elections all over the world. Do you really think neo-liberal Britain is so very different these days?

 

There are huge problems with the current system, and any informed person knows it, but your last line actually says it all.

'The only way things will/may change is if the political scene changes, and I can't see that happening anytime soon, as current politics does not allow it.'

 

If that isn't a recipe for civil unrest then what is?

 

 

 

[ECCOnoob]

4 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Yeah all that, but if you know some of them personally or even know somebody who knows them - you're in. Need to swerve some up-coming planning regs, want to head up a public health body despite a stream of failures - don't worry about it, you just need to go to the right dinner party.

That is true.  However, friends in high places is never going to go away.

 

Plus that level of sycophancy goes well beyond politics.    Plenty of those in the world who know the Doctor up at no 26 who you can tap to skip the GP queue or that company MD golf aquaintence who you can buy a few pints for to give little Jimmy a favourable job interview or that Solicitor friend at Football who you can tap for a bit of freebie advice or cheap conveyancing or that disenchanted Police Officer who might be playable for a nice few extra pounds. 

[Anna B]

23 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

I know a couple of good people who were elected onto Sheffield City Council, both with a view to making a difference. 

Not a chance. Unless you were part of 'the club' you were stonewalled and sent to the equivalent of Siberia. They gave up in the end.

You don't make friends in high places by trying to change a system that serves those at the top well.

7 minutes ago, Anna B said:

I know a couple of good people who were elected onto Sheffield City Council, both with a view to making a difference. 

Not a chance. Unless you were part of 'the club' you were stonewalled and sent to the equivalent of Siberia. They gave up in the end.

You don't make friends in high places by trying to change a system that serves those at the top well.

Sorry, this response was to post 156 by Ecconoob.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Anna B

[Anna B]

51 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

I disagree.  They do listen.  Its just that they cannot hear for all the excess shouting. 

 

"The people" are dumb.  "The people"  are emotive and reactionary.  "The people" dont research, investigate and consider full context.  "The people" are selfish and dont consider wider implications. "The people" are fickle and dont even know what they want themselves....    That is why we have elected representatives.  Without such nothing could ever get done.   Blimey, the house with merely 650 of various supposed political alignments have shown numerous examples of failing to agree on things and parliamentary sessions descending into shouting fests - how the hell are "The people" in their billions supposed to agree on something.

 

I have said before that there are numerous ways that "The people" could choose to become engaged in their communities, local affairs and national politics.  However, significant numbers of those "people" wont because its dull and difficult to understand and time consuming and generally not as exciting as watching Love Island or reading about some shagging scandal in The Sun.  

 

Protest can and does work.   Petitioning can and does work.  But it has to have a succint and rational point.   Im not seeing that these days.  What I am seeing is lots of generic wide-scale shouting fests over nothing and everything.   A substantial number of which, in my opinion, are fuelled by nothing more than the losers of the last election desprately trying to find ways to shout out the democratically elected government from office.     

 

That is not succinct and rational.  That sort of protest is nothing more than a generic "...I dont like and its all their fault". 

 

Whether some of those "people" dont like and didnt vote for the current leaders is wholly irrelevant.   Its was an fair democratic election which followed exactly the same process as every other election before.  The majority went to the Tories just like the majority went to Labour in 1997 and no majority went to either in 2010  and 2017.  

 

Now, if they want to change the electoral system completely to make it fairer - that's absolutely fine.  Protest for that but make it that subject alone.   Instead we always seems to be get some some 1001 subject cornucopia street march filled with  the usual "rent a mob" followers waving around their sponsored placards.   No wonder the context gets completely drowned out.

 

If "the people" seriously want to have their say then far far more of them need to be prepared to put the effort in.  That goes well beyond clicking some online poll/petition and far more than just joining some nice walk around London on a sunny day.     People need to get smart and properly understand the decisions being made, the context and how it will affect not just them but the wider population BEFORE jumping in with some reaction. 

 

They need to start properly engaging in the politics they vote for.   Reading the paperwork which is duly published all over the parlimentary and local authority websites.   Attending the commitees either in person or virtually by activley seeking out the consultations when they are and/or watching the recordings of either commitees or parliamentry sessions which are freely available on both television and the web 24 hours a day.    That's how they will learn about the processes and maybe understand properly why things are done in a certain way and take a certain timescale BEFORE jumping to some reaction.

 

"The people" need to start properly engaging with their elected representatives.  They are free to contact, meet with and communicate with their offices on any issue including seeking any available freedom of information on the subjects they have concerns about.  That way they can obtain the full factual information BEFORE jumping to some reaction.  

 

That's how you get them to listen.  Everything else is white noise.

Even the Liberal Democrats didn't manage to change the system, even though they tried.

The popular PR (Proportional Representation) vote they proposed  was screwed by some clever Tory slight of hand, which turned it into a vote for AV which nobody wanted or understood.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Anna B

[tinfoilhat]

2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

That is true.  However, friends in high places is never going to go away.

 

Plus that level of sycophancy goes well beyond politics.    Plenty of those in the world who know the Doctor up at no 26 who you can tap to skip the GP queue or that company MD golf aquaintence who you can buy a few pints for to give little Jimmy a favourable job interview or that Solicitor friend at Football who you can tap for a bit of freebie advice or cheap conveyancing or that disenchanted Police Officer who might be playable for a nice few extra pounds. 

It's getting worse I think.